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Buckeye1sid
09-26-2005, 02:13 PM
Should be banned. The infant is partially born, then killed. Then removed from the murderous mommy. The killing of the infant has no "life saving" merit for the woman, and the child is delivered anyway. This is simply murder.

Bleep
09-26-2005, 03:12 PM
does anyone anywhere actually do that procedure anymore? A sad relic of the past, I'm hoping. I haven't heard of it being done for at least a decade around these parts, unless you count the miscarriages that are surgically removed after the fetus dies. When home pregnancy test kits and confidential early ( first trimester) abortion is freely available, the need for these sorts of drastic procedures is vastly reduced.

Buckeye1sid
09-26-2005, 03:51 PM
It may well go before the Supreme Court soon. The ban, signed by Bush, is being challenged by Nebraska because the law had no provision for the health of the woman. This heinous murder may again become legal.

randy
09-26-2005, 04:13 PM
That is something that I do not understand. How are you protecting the life of the mother if the child is "partially" born and then the skull punctured and the brains of that child sucked out and then the corpse removed or "delivered" vaginally? Why not simply birth the child and put it up for adoption? I don't get this one and I will be honest, I am Pro Choice. But I do NOT support this.


Bard if this is too graphic PLEASE feel free to edit, but I wanted to make SURE that everyone understands what this procedure is or at least what I understand it to be.

browneyedK
09-26-2005, 05:12 PM
I think it should be banned too. Anything after the first trimester..should continue, however...you can't legislate morality...

Starz
09-26-2005, 06:07 PM
I don't think the most ardent pro-choicer would select this as a method of preference. BUT it is a MEDICAL procedure and should be decided by a physician and his patient, not by our ever-so-intelligent legislatures.

Also, from what I could find on the net, there is a lot of mis-information from both sides so even more difficult for a non-medical person to make a judgement.


Starz

Rabbit392
09-26-2005, 08:37 PM
Good response, Starz. I'm with you.

There should be an exception for health of the mother, IMO. It's a difficult position to be in and who can choose what is best except for the mother and her physician in such a case?

And before you say there is nothing that should warrant this - mother has been diagnosed with breast cancer. Mother is 4 months pregnant and cannot undergo treatment without hurting the child. Mother will not live 2 months without radical surgery and treatment.

In such a case you have a lose-lose situation. That's why no law should be so definitive as to allow legal murder of a mother instead of protection of her health. Even if that means having to abort a pregnancy.

randy
09-26-2005, 09:40 PM
Good response, Starz. I'm with you.

There should be an exception for health of the mother, IMO. It's a difficult position to be in and who can choose what is best except for the mother and her physician in such a case?

And before you say there is nothing that should warrant this - mother has been diagnosed with breast cancer. Mother is 4 months pregnant and cannot undergo treatment without hurting the child. Mother will not live 2 months without radical surgery and treatment.

In such a case you have a lose-lose situation. That's why no law should be so definitive as to allow legal murder of a mother instead of protection of her health. Even if that means having to abort a pregnancy.



I had not considered that possibility. YES such a procedure would be warranted in such a circumstance. It would NOT, IMO, just as a means of birth control.

Rabbit392
09-26-2005, 09:46 PM
Randy I agree about the birth control aspects.

I support a woman's right to choose. I don't believe for a second that anyone can tell a woman what she can or cannot do with her body. God gave her that right when he gave her the reproductive organs that carry children to birth.

If God had wanted a man to make that decision he/she would have given men a uterus.

However I deplore those that use abortion as a method of birth control. That shows a lack of intelligence, moral depravity and reckless disregard of their own personal health. (And no, I do not consider the morning after pill an abortion).

When it comes to choosing between the life of the child and the life of the woman - that's a hard enough decision to make without also involving a law that cannot consider every possible medical situation.

Peregrina
09-26-2005, 10:40 PM
IMO, patial birth abortion is a disgusitng practice that shouldn't be allowed -

BUT

There are exceptions and instances where it is the only recourse.

Abortion is legal, but so many of the regs coming down now are doing nothing but infringing on a woman's right to choose.

I do think there should be regulations in regards to parental notification, late term abortions and instances where the health of the fetus or mother are in danger. As women, we have the right to choose what is right for ourselves and our bodies. If they make abortion illegal once again, that will not take away that right.

edited for clarity

randy
09-26-2005, 10:52 PM
IMO, patial birth abortion is a disgusitng practice that shouldn't be allowed -

BUT

There are exceptions and instances where it is the only recourse.

Abortion is legal, but so many of the regs coming down now are doing nothing but infringing on a woman's right to choose.

I do think there should be regulations in regards to parental notification, late term abortions and instances where the health of the fetus or mother are in danger. As women, we have the right to choose what is right for ourselves and our bodies. If they make abortion illegal once again, that will not take away that right.

edited for clarity


I pretty much agree with that. We should be able to all sit down and clamly and rationally discuss this issue like reasonable adults. I am right there that the final choice must rest with the woman involved. I would resent to high heaven having anyone else telling me what I could or could not do with my own body. It is a very complicated situation as there is at least potentially another human being directly involved and let's not forget that a male did contribute to the creation of that fetus. There just are no easy answers.

Parental notification OR getting a Judge to sign off for a minor seems reasonable to me. I would also like to see that INFORMED consent be required. What other surgical procedure can an individual undergo and the Doctor who is going to perform it not be required to sit down and explain in detail the procedure and the possible consequences? I do NOT think that is placing an undue burden on the woman involved, I think it is PROTECTING her right to full, complete and accurate information. SHE will live with this decision for the rest of her life and DESERVES to have that information to base her decision on. IMHO

Peregrina
09-26-2005, 11:10 PM
RANDY -

Parental notification OR getting a Judge to sign off for a minor seems reasonable to me. I would also like to see that INFORMED consent be required. What other surgical procedure can an individual undergo and the Doctor who is going to perform it not be required to sit down and explain in detail the procedure and the possible consequences? I do NOT think that is placing an undue burden on the woman involved, I think it is PROTECTING her right to full, complete and accurate information. SHE will live with this decision for the rest of her life and DESERVES to have that information to base her decision on. IMHO

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

very good point, Randy. in that situation, I would want all the facts and consequences of my decision. when I had oral surgery on my back molar, the dentist sat me down and explained exactly what he was going to do and what could go wrong. of course I was in a great deal of pain at the time ,but I appreciated the info.
for something like abortion, I would want it all spelled out and would most likely brood over it for a few days before going through with it.

Grace
09-27-2005, 04:27 AM
However I deplore those that use abortion as a method of birth control. That shows a lack of intelligence, moral depravity and reckless disregard of their own personal health. (And no, I do not consider the morning after pill an abortion). Rabbit 392


I totally agree, and in this day and age (in 99%) of the cases, birth control could have been used. There is just hardly any reason for anyone to become pregnant and abort, with all the contraceptives we have now.

Rape and incest would be in a different catagory.
grace

gabby
09-27-2005, 05:09 AM
Well, there are different instances in which a woman/girl may be faced with the decision of abortion or not. Most everyone agrees to most of the reasons as to why they should. But, at one time in my life I was faced with making that decision for another person. That is not an easy choice to make for anyone, in any circumstance, in my opinion.

My niece ( a grown woman with other children by this time and unmarried) was having some problems in her pregnancy. She was pregnant and I think she may have been 5 months, maybe 6 months along at this point. Problems arose and she was rushed to the hospital. Her Dad was in another hospital in another town, critically ill with cancer. And of course her mother was with her Dad. Neither of her siblings were around, so I was next of kin (and only by marriage might I add). The doctor (a gynecologist) approached me and told me that we may have a situation here that requires a decision to make. The life of the baby or the life of the Mother, and it was up to me to make a snap decision, because there wasn't time to go into prayer and deliberation about it. It is really strange how quickly thoughts can go through your head when you have to make a fast decision. Well, based on the fact that her Dad was dying with cancer, the family had been through nine kinds of hell, I looked at the doctor, very sick at my stomach but knowing I was making the right decision. I said "Save the Mother's life no matter what it takes". I knew in my heart that the baby would be God's baby. I also knew that at that point, her parents couldnt' handle her death in order to save the baby's life. The doctor told me that I had made the right choice, and I had to sign the papers for my decision.

The emotions going through me were so strong because I knew I had just made a choice about the life of at least one little human being. I was sick, I was terribly upset, and I knew my niece had no idea that I had made that choice.

A few minutes later ( I don't know how long it was, seemed like forever) and a lot of prayer, the doctor came out and told me the emergency c-section had been performed, one of the fastest he had ever done and not the prettiest one at that, but he was able to save the mother's life and the baby's. Of course neonatal had to whisk the baby away to another hospital and put it in icu. That little baby is now a healthy 19 year old good looking young man.

A person never knows what decisions they would really make until faced with it whatever the reason. I always thought that I couldn't ever agree to abort a chld/fetus whatever you want to call it. But a person never really knows for sure. BUT.......in all honesty, I am against abortion without medical necessities requiring it.

Bleep
09-27-2005, 08:42 AM
Gabby, a brave and wise decision. And a welcomed post.

another poster writes:
There is just hardly any reason for anyone to become pregnant and abort, with all the contraceptives we have now.

Holy Cow, the drug companies have done a wonderful job of brainwashing haven't they? They advertise that their oral contraceptives for women are 99% effective. That means, that out of 100 women in their laboratory studieswho take the pill consistently and never miss a dose, each year one of them will get pregnant.

What they don't tell you, is that in the real world 65% of women forget at least one pill every cycle, and most women forget a few every year. Suddenly the effectiveness rate of the Pill drops to about 80% and 20 women who take the pill pretty regularly , will find themselves pregnant each year. In this country, most early abortions are due to contraception failure, not lack of contraception. Even people with vasectomies and tubal ligations have a significant pregnancy rate.

And the Pill is the most effective! Condoms have an average failure rate of about 25%. Spermicides are only about 60% effective. Diaphragms slip, and rhythm and withdrawal are not at all effective for most people. The only effective method is abstinence from all exchange of spermatozoa. For most of us, this means masturbation and/or abstinence.

There will always be a demand for abortion, no matter how hard we try to prevent it.

Starz
09-27-2005, 09:31 AM
This thread seems to have evolved somewhat into whether one approves of abortion of any sort as opposed to just the medical procedure sometimes called partial birth abortion... So I will put in my old-lady-hood two cents again.

I remember when abortion was illegal. Sure didn't mean they didn't happen. "Nice" girls seemed to have frequent need for a "D&C" performed by their family doctor (back in my small-town rural south there weren't any OB-GYN's yet). One of our local doctors set up an informal abortion clinic on the weekends at one of the local motels. Everybody knew when/where. Cops looked the other way. But in my town, the cops looked the other way pretty often -- illegal whiskey, prostitution and by the 60's drugs too.

Abortion has been around since the first woman learned how. They won't go away. IMNSHO -- If (when) abortions become illegal again, we will revert to the system of these earlier times -- people of means will find ways to get safe abortions and poor women will die. And many women did die of botched procedures from untrained suppliers of the service and from sepsis due to unsanitary conditions of the providers. So if someone believes poor women deserve to die for the "murder" of their unborn babies, then press for changing the law. Otherwise, support programs that help eliminate the need whether that be education, better contraceptives, or some other solution yet to be discovered.

Starz

Buckeye1sid
09-27-2005, 09:41 AM
Just a silly thought, why not make no law concerning it?

momahedger
09-27-2005, 10:53 AM
well, this thread really happily surprised me. I am ashamed to say that this procedure came from OH. :thud I believe in all forms of life. and the respect of life. and the aspect of abortion is abhorent to me, but I do not look down on the women who have it done because in most cases, it is not something that is whymsically done.

I think that this procedure should be banned and outlawed because it is not humane nor even necessary. so a baby being born breach wanted by parents is life but not wanted can be killed by crushing the skull. the birth is that of a breach. and what makes the head the integral part to say it is life? it can be monitored with a heart beat etc and thus it lives.

I would like to see that new procedure put into place. they would not satisfy the most radical of Prolifers but they would those who may be like I am, not happy with abortion but not willing to condemn people when we are not without sin ourselves.

1. a waiting period before an abortion can be performed after the first visit. and a document to be presented to show that there has been.

2. not performed after 3 months, unless for the sake of the mother who would make the ultimate decision or her spouse if she is incapicitated.

3. during the waiting period, there should be classes put on by professionals (not prolifers, nor pro abortionists) who would show both sides, the good and the bad. and talk over the repercussions as far as the emotional side. NO cost but required. and then also a certificate to be presented at the end. NO fan fare, no having to tell which they are choosing, but just given out. and annotated.

it should be the hardest thing that any mother would have to choose. or a husband/father. but what do I know. :ohwell

Wolfhoundowner
09-27-2005, 04:13 PM
So if I have the method of the procedure correct, the head is delivered vaginally, then punctured so the baby dies. Right?

So why the hell not just let the rest of the baby slip out, cut the cord, and present some poor couple somewhere who would give their RIGHT ARMS to have a child with a healthy baby?

In the case of most of these late-term abortions, the baby would live outside the mother's body. After all, the woman has already done the hardest parts -- she carried the baby for 6 - 9 months, and delivered the head.

Why is it so necessary to kill something that close to being a separate human being on his/her own?

I just don't understand.....

Grace
09-27-2005, 08:01 PM
There will always be a demand for abortion, no matter how hard we try to prevent it. (So many late term abortations, cause Nurses and Doctors not to keep doing it, because the fetus is breathing when placed in the trash)

This is true, but if contraceptives are used, and corectlly, as they should be the thousands of abortions would not be such a normal amount. (Most come from just plain playing around and not caring at the time)
I can see abortion cut to less than 10 % if correct contraception is used. MO


The failure rate for vasectomy is about 1 percent. The failure rate for tubal ligation is slightly higher at about 2 percent which translates into a risk of pregnancy occuring following tubal ligation of about 1 pregnancy in 1000 women who've undergone this procedure.

http://womenshealth.about.com/cs/sterilization/a/sterilizhisorhe.htm

For the pill to work, you have to take it every day.

Failure rates for birth control methods when used correctly
(Number of pregnancies per 100 women per year)
Male condom alone
11

Female condom alone
21

Diaphragm with spermicide
17

Cervical cap with spermicide
17 to 23

Sponge with spermicide
14 to 28

Spermicide alone
20 to 50

Oral contraceptives
1 to 2

Contraceptive patch*
1 to 2

Vaginal contraceptive ring
1 to 2

Hormone shots
less than 1

Hormone implant
less than 1

IUD
less than 1
Periodic abstinence 20
Surgical sterilization (female) less than 1

Surgical sterilization (male) less than 1



* Contraceptive patch is less effective in women weighing more than 198 pounds.

Information from U.S. Food and Drug Administration. Birth Control Guide. Retrieved August 4, 2004, from the World Wide Web: http://www.fda.gov/fdac/features/1997/babytabl.html

I just get so upset when I hear about very young girls just wanting to have a baby, when they "Themselves" are still babies.
We do have ways, and should enforce them rather than the abortion, which I would assume no one likes.
But if made illegal we will revert back to the back alley and coat hangers, with quacks.
My reason for preaching contraception.
grace