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View Full Version : Iraq Becomes Another Viet Nam


Bard
09-28-2005, 11:30 PM
Our VERY presence is escalating and inflaming the situation, but we just do not get it!

We will be there for years, at the expence of THOUSANDS of our childrens lives spent, and blood spilled, if we do not impeach this maniac!

They will never stop!

THEY DO NOT WANT US THERE, GET IT????






Updated: 08:53 PM EDT
Commander Backs Away From Talk of Pullout
Bush in New Push to Raise Support for War and Warns of Violence
By NEDRA PICKLER, AP



WASHINGTON (Sept. 28) - The top U.S. commander in Iraq backed away on Wednesday from his prediction that a substantial pullout of U.S. troops could begin by next spring, as the White House undertakes a new campaign to win public support for the war effort.

AP
"We can expect they'll (insurgents) do everything in their power to try to stop the march of freedom," President Bush says. "And our troops are ready for it."

Gen. George Casey's latest assessment came as President Bush - down in the polls and criticized for his hurricane response - starts to turn his focus back to the fight against terrorism and to Iraq , the issues that helped him win re-election last year.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Vice President Dick Cheney plan speeches on Iraq in the next few days, followed by a presidential address in Washington on Oct. 6.

Bush on Wednesday sent Casey and Gen. John Abizaid, the commander of U.S. Central Command, to Capitol Hill to update lawmakers on war operations. "We're on the offense," Bush said, the two generals at his side in the Rose Garden. "We have a plan to win."

Bush warned of an upsurge in violence before Iraqis vote Oct. 15 on a new constitution. He said that insurgents ultimately will fail.

Casey, the most senior commander of coalition forces in Iraq , repeatedly has said "fairly substantial" troop withdrawals could happen after parliamentary balloting in December election if the political process stayed on track, if the insurgency did not expand and if the training of Iraqi security forces continued as planned.

After the commanders met with senators, reporters asked Casey whether he still believed that to be the case, given current conditions in Iraq .

"I think right now we're in a period of a little greater uncertainty than when I was asked that question back in July and March," Casey said.

"Until we're done with this political process here with the referendum and the elections in December, I think it's too soon to tell," Casey said.

Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's spokesman later played down Casey's comments. "In July he had one assessment. He has an assessment now that could still result in what he said earlier, it could result in no change, it could result in more," Lawrence Di Rita said.

Casey and Abizaid were to testify on Thursday before the Senate and House Armed Services committees with Rumsfeld and Gen. Richard B. Myers, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

Cheney's speech is planned for Monday from Camp Lejeune, a Marine base in North Carolina. Rice plans to address some of the administration's political opponents Friday at Princeton University's Woodrow Wilson School of Public and International Affairs.

The school for diplomats-in-training has a liberal tradition. The dean, Anne-Marie Slaughter, this month criticized the way the Iraq war is being fought and compared the Abu Ghraib prison scandal with Hurricane Katrina. "We are as individual Americans ashamed," she said at a conference sponsored by the liberal New America Foundation.

The administration's focus on Iraq comes amid negative news about soaring gasoline prices, the war and the federal response to Katrina.

Daily reports of U.S. troops deaths - approaching 2,000 - have helped drive down public support in the U.S. for the war.

In an AP-Ipsos poll this month, only 37 percent approved or leaned toward approval of how Bush has handled the situation in Iraq . The percentage who disapproved strongly outweighed those who approved strongly by 46 percent to 22 percent.

The administration's public relations campaign seems similar to one in June that followed a six-week wave of suicide bombings, kidnappings and beheadings that killed more than 1,000 people.

The violence led some Republicans to join Democrats in calling for a strategy to bring U.S. troops home.

Senate Democrats said in a letter Wednesday to Rumsfeld that he should provide "frank answers" to the public's questions about Iraq , including the status of the training of Iraqi security forces and expected U.S. troop levels over the next year.

"Continued stonewalling, or simply saying these answers are 'unknowable' or are 'conditions based,' are no longer satisfactory," the lawmakers said. "The Congress and the American people deserve better information."

Associated Press writer Liz Sidoti contributed to this report.


09-28-05 20:39 EDT

randy
09-28-2005, 11:47 PM
I have been saying that this would be another Vietnam since the beginning of the second week of the invasion in late March early April 2003?

Too much time has passed since Vietnam for it to be clearly remembered. Too many books and movies romanticizing it. Too much silence about what really went on there. Too much money to be made today and an economy to prop up with defense spending. One big difference is that you WILL NOT seeing the body bags being unloaded from the planes these days. We have 9/11 that replaced the EVIL USSR that was threatening world peace and promising a communist dictatorship through the entire world. Now their saying if Iraq becomes an active religiously fanantic muslim state so will her neighbors. Anyone remember the "dominoe" theory about southeast Asia back in the 60s? If Vietnam fell so would Thailand and Pakistan and India, etc, etc.

SAME FUCKING BULLSHIT, DIFFERENT DECADE AND CENTURY, that is all.

Poodles
09-29-2005, 12:15 AM
Our VERY presence is escalating and inflaming the situation, but we just do not get it! :stonekick

-Dont seem like it does it Bard-Iam thinking the USA Army-bring them home-
I feel so sad for the Reservises who have been sent over their-Bring them all Home-USA is their home-Dear God-those Army etc over there must be so missing THEIR country-their familys-I do remember VietNam I was only a cihld but intersted cos older family members chattering about it-Then the poor soliders coming home-I know a few nam-Vets-Too damm bad for some-they wont get over -what they saw-what they themselves did-etc..My understanding<If Iam wrong please tell me> is that their Tour of Duty is long-That they also come home-Then get sent back-PHEW-Bring them home-

:stonekick

TwiggyAZ
09-29-2005, 10:01 AM
SAME FUCKING BULLSHIT, DIFFERENT DECADE AND CENTURY, that is all.

:thumbsup :thumbsup :thumbsup

Buckeye1sid
09-29-2005, 10:13 AM
Sorry, Folks! There is no comparison between VN and Iraq. In the former we opposed a national reunification effort. In the latter, the vast majority of the people in Iraq are opposed to the terrorists, many of whom are not Iraq's (the terrorists).
Lastly, in VN we were sending draftees. Now we have a volunteer army.

basca
09-29-2005, 10:18 AM
It's volunteer for now. But don't you think we are spread a little thin? We are everywhere, oh, except guarding our own borders. One more bump in the road and I think we will see a draft. :ohwell

randy
09-29-2005, 10:19 AM
Sorry, Folks! There is no comparison between VN and Iraq. In the former we opposed a national reunification effort. In the latter, the vast majority of the people in Iraq are opposed to the terrorists, many of whom are not Iraq's (the terrorists).
Lastly, in VN we were sending draftees. Now we have a volunteer army.

Well we will see. I guess it all depends on one's perspective. Not that it matters to me personally. I do NOT have one family member in the US military and most of my loved ones are financially secure and have their assets structured for minimal impact from a fluctuating US Dollar and taxing situation, so we aren't impacted personally. But I think the most striking thing that Iraq and Vietnam have in common at this point is the growing dissatisfaction of the American public and it's dwindling support for the military effort. How long do you think it will be before there are protests in the streets, police dogs, water cannons and hoses, etc? I give it maybe 2 more years? Just a guess.

Buckeye1sid
09-29-2005, 10:21 AM
Randy, I don't doubt it. Who the hell wants war?

randy
09-29-2005, 10:23 AM
Randy, I don't doubt it. Who the hell wants war?

Those that seek to continue and expand US domination through out the world and it's economic markets. Those who stand to gain financially from such military campaigns. Maybe the US defense industry? Maybe those Americans who currently hold political power that feel we have some preordained mission from God to save and protect humanity? The list could go on.

Buckeye1sid
09-29-2005, 10:27 AM
I won't argue that, those people have always been around and they always will be.

randy
09-29-2005, 10:30 AM
I won't argue that, those people have always been around and they always will be.


That is exactly my point. How much longer do you think the rest of the world, a growing European Union which can match us economically and when combined pretty much militarily, a Russian Federation with a vast stockpile of nuclear/chemical/biological weapons, a Peoples Republic of China with the largest army in the world and a booming economy are going to allow such domination? Think about it.

Bard
09-29-2005, 10:45 AM
Sorry, Folks! There is no comparison between VN and Iraq. In the former we opposed a national reunification effort. In the latter, the vast majority of the people in Iraq are opposed to the terrorists, many of whom are not Iraq's (the terrorists).
Lastly, in VN we were sending draftees. Now we have a volunteer army.

The comparison is this my friend, we are fighting an undeclared war on foreign soil at the cost of thousands of U.S, soldiers lives,

And it is going to drag on forever, a senseless slaughter, that makes no sense to any.

That is my comparison, fighting an undeclared war, in a country where we have NO business being.

The other camparison is stark & obvious, the American citizens are fed up with it, and wanted it ended.

Another comparison is this silly notion of waging war on communism which is no threat to us.

The draft is right around the corner.

Buckeye1sid
09-29-2005, 10:53 AM
Another comparison is this silly notion of waging war on communism which is no threat to us.

Did you mean this? Communism? I was unaware it was an issue here.

And it is going to drag on forever, a senseless slaughter, that makes no sense to any.

I believe it makes sense to the majority of Iraq's. That's why they still line up to join the police force or the army, knowing that they're risking their lives.

Bard I'm not for any war. But there are valid reasons for being there. The reasons for going there in the first place could still bear scrutiny.

randy
09-29-2005, 10:56 AM
"I believe it makes sense to the majority of Iraq's. That's why they still line up to join the police force or the army, knowing that they're risking their lives.

Bard I'm not for any war. But there are valid reasons for being there. The reasons for going there in the first place could still bear scrutiny."


So tell me Buck, are YOU PERSONALLY willing to die for IRAQ's "freedom" OR are you just willing to see OTHER people die for it? How about YOUR SON OR DAUGHTER? I personally couldn't care less if those people as a whole live in abject poverty and are beaten on a daily basis if it is going to cost American life and cripple the US economy. THIS is EXACTLY what I meant when I said the US has GOT TO STOP being the Police of the WORLD. WTF

Buckeye1sid
09-29-2005, 11:01 AM
I served. Today's armed forces are voluntary.

randy
09-29-2005, 11:04 AM
"So tell me Buck, are YOU PERSONALLY willing to die for IRAQ's "freedom" OR are you just willing to see OTHER people die for it? How about YOUR SON OR DAUGHTER? I personally couldn't care less if those people as a whole live in abject poverty and are beaten on a daily basis if it is going to cost American life and cripple the US economy. THIS is EXACTLY what I meant when I said the US has GOT TO STOP being the Police of the WORLD. WTF"


I believe this was the question I asked please? So if US military is "voluntary" THEN the life involved is more expendable? Is it still "voluntary" when the US Government FORCES EXTENSIONS of service time (you know LONGER than what the person signed up for?)

Buckeye1sid
09-29-2005, 11:11 AM
Do want us just to pack up and leave before the Iraqi's have a trained police force and army?

IndianPrincessSIP
09-29-2005, 11:18 AM
5 American Soldiers 60 Iraqi Civilians Die 70 Wounded




At Least 60 Dead in Iraq Car Bombings

http://apnews.myway.com//article/20050929/D8CU2IQ00.html

Sep 29, 1:50 PM (ET)

By SAMEER N. YACOUB



BAGHDAD, Iraq (AP) - Three suicide attackers detonated car bombs nearly simultaneously in a mainly Shiite town north of Baghdad on Thursday, killing at least 60 people and wounding 70 others, a hospital official said. In the western town of Ramadi, the military said a roadside bomb killed five American soldiers.

The car bombs occurred just before sunset, around 6:45 p.m., hitting a bank, a vegetable market and another location in downtown Balad, a mostly Shiite city 50 miles north of the capital, witnesses said.

Dr. Khaled al-Azawi of Balad Hospital said at least 60 people were killed, and 70 were wounded, including the town's police chief, Col. Kadhim Abdul Razzaq, and four other policemen.

basca
09-29-2005, 11:20 AM
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b117/basca/Whatever/sad-smiley-056.gif

basca
09-29-2005, 11:21 AM
I hate the shape this world is in, it is such a mess. People claim it is a better place than what it was, but I see it as just a place where so much evil abides.

Buckeye1sid
09-29-2005, 11:25 AM
It has always been thus.

randy
09-29-2005, 11:27 AM
Do want us just to pack up and leave before the Iraqi's have a trained police force and army?


YES, I do. We had no business going there in the first place. It is NOT our fight. I personally could care less how those people live. I would respectfully remind you that Iraq like a great many other nations that currently exist in this world, had thriving cultures and economys BEFORE we even existed. I see no reason why they can't continue to chart their own destiny now.

Buckeye1sid
09-29-2005, 11:30 AM
Randy, you're position is valid, but I don't agree with it. I think we've both expressed ourselves. There really isn't more to say.

randy
09-29-2005, 11:33 AM
As is yours and I agree. We may disagree but I thank you for doing so in an intelligent and gracious manner.

IndianPrincessSIP
09-29-2005, 11:37 AM
At least we should be outfitting them. mymy



Troops Wait for Body Armor Reimbursements


http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050929081409990001&ncid=NWS00010000000001


By LOLITA C. BALDOR, AP
WASHINGTON (Sept. 29) - Nearly a year after Congress demanded action, the Pentagon has still failed to figure out a way to reimburse soldiers for body armor and equipment they purchased to better protect themselves while serving in Iraq.



-- A former Marine who spent nearly $1,000 two weeks ago to buy body armor for his son, a Marine serving in Fallujah




(AP)Soldiers and their parents are still spending hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars for armor they say the military won't provide. One U.S. senator said Wednesday he will try again to force the Pentagon to obey the reimbursement law it opposed from the outset and has so far not implemented.

Sen. Christopher Dodd, D-Conn., said he will offer amendments to the defense appropriations bill working its way through Congress, to take the funding issue out of the hands of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and give control to military unit commanders in the field.

"Rumsfeld is violating the law," Dodd said in an interview with The Associated Press. "It's been sitting on the books for over a year. They were opposed to it. It was insulting to them. I'm sorry that's how they felt."

Pentagon spokeswoman Air Force Lt. Col. Ellen Krenke said the department "is in the final stages of putting a reimbursement program together, and it is expected to be operating soon." But defense officials would not discuss the reason for the delay.

Krenke said the Pentagon's first priority is to ensure that soldiers "have all they need to fight and win this nation's wars."

Others don't see it that way.

"Your expectation is that when you are sent to war, that our government does everything they can do to protect the lives of our people, and anything less than that is not good enough," said a former Marine who spent nearly $1,000 two weeks ago to buy lower-body armor for his son, a Marine serving in Fallujah.




The father asked that he be identified only by his first name - Gordon - because he is afraid of retribution against his son.

"I wouldn't have cared if it cost us $10,000 to protect our son, I would do it," said Gordon. "But I think the U.S. has an obligation to make sure they have this equipment and to reimburse for it. I just don't support Donald Rumsfeld's idea of going to war with what you have, not what you want. You go to war prepared, and you don't go to war until you are prepared."

Under the law passed by Congress last October, the Defense Department had until Feb. 25 to develop regulations for the reimbursement, which is limited to $1,100 per item. Pentagon officials opposed the reimbursement idea, calling it "an unmanageable precedent that will saddle the DOD with an open-ended financial burden."


In a letter to Dodd in late April, David Chu, undersecretary of defense for personnel, said his office was developing regulations to implement the reimbursement, and would be done in about 60 days.

Soldiers and their families have reported buying everything from higher-quality protective gear to armor for their Humvees, medical supplies and even global positioning devices.

"The bottom line is that Donald Rumsfeld and the Defense Department are failing soldiers again," said Paul Rieckhoff, executive director of Operation Truth, an advocacy group for Iraq veterans.

"It just became an accepted part of the culture. If you were National Guard or Reserve, or NCOs, noncommissioned officers, you were going to spend a lot of money out of your pocket," said Rieckhoff, who was a platoon leader with the 3rd Infantry Division and served in Iraq from the invasion in March 2003 to spring 2004. "These are bureaucratic failures, but when they make mistakes like this, guys die. There has been progress made, but we're still seeing serious shortages."

Dodd said he is worried the Pentagon will reject most requests for reimbursement. Turning the decision over to the troop commanders will prevent that, he said, because the commanders know what their soldiers need and will make better decisions about what to reimburse.

Dodd also said he wants to eliminate the deadline included in the original law, which allowed soldiers to seek reimbursement for items bought between September 2001 and July 2004. Now, he said, he wants it to be open-ended.

"I'm tired of this, obviously they're not getting the job done," said Dodd. "If you have to go out and buy equipment to protect yourself, you're going to get reimbursed."


9/29/2005 04:31:56

randy
09-29-2005, 11:38 AM
IP, thanks for posting that.

NOW I really am POed!

Buckeye1sid
09-29-2005, 11:39 AM
Thank you, Randy, after all, this IS the new and vastly improved Bards.

Bard
09-29-2005, 11:51 AM
Pardon me Sid, shall we call the ghost the "Axis of evil" this time, instead of communism.

Yet communism IS still what prompts our animosity towards Cuba for instance yes?

Buckeye1sid
09-29-2005, 11:58 AM
Bard, I think our animosity toward Cuba is insane. We don't like Fidel, so we starve their population. In the relativistic, pragmatic, attitude of any sane administration, an accomodation would have been reached years ago.

TwiggyAZ
09-29-2005, 12:47 PM
I would agree re: Cuba, we need to move on and out of the Century and get with the program. It is pure and simple ego, or some kind of insane stand off. Cuba is not more a threat to us than New Jersey(sorry, no insult intended)..but you know what I mean.

I think that even if we pulled out today or 10 years from now...just like Vietnam, there will be a Civil War and someone will end up ruling just like it was when we INVADED without reason.

Waste waste waste waste waste...all for ego. Or oil...I dunno.

Buckeye1sid
09-29-2005, 12:49 PM
Damn it, don't get me started on New Jersey.

TwiggyAZ
09-29-2005, 12:56 PM
Damn it, don't get me started on New Jersey.


:laugh