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InfoNut
10-02-2005, 02:04 PM
Recently, it seems as if I hear a watered down version of Christianity becoming prevelant. The "live a good and peaceful life and when you go die, you'll go to heaven" version of Christianity.

Is this not a drastic mistake, and an abrogation of the entire reason Christ was crucified? If mankind is able to get to heaven without him, why did he put himself through that?

I'm not Agnostic. If you have to slap a label on me, you can call me an athiest. If always had difficulty with the bible. Taken literally, the bible is a scary book full of stories about a type of god I'm not sure I'd want to worship if I DID believe. If it's allegorical, how do you know which parts are meant to be interpreted, and which arent?

Just curious.

This didn't caver nearly the ground I wanted to, but I'm hoping this thread will cover some ground. I have to admit... I "Don't Get It", but I do love discussing it.

InfoNut

randy
10-02-2005, 02:19 PM
I have heard all my life that it is a matter of faith. I don't believe that. I do believe faith is necessary but I don't think that is the crux of it. If you look around at the wonders in the Universe how can you possibly believe it all just "happened?"

For me my true belief came when I was in college and took freshman level Biology. I worked my ass of and got a D. I am fairly intelligent. Easily got As and Bs in everything else without studying and missed alot of class. But Biology was different. Learning about life on the cellular level, the different kinds of life that exist, the way chemistry works even on a very elementary level conviced me there was more to it that mere chance.

When I look over my life I have no doubt that miracles have been bestowed on me on a regular and reoccuring basis. I would not be alive today without them. I have seen God at work. That makes believing alot easier.

Be calm, LISTEN and watch. You will be amazed at what will be revealed. IMO

InfoNut
10-02-2005, 02:35 PM
For me, the sheer complexity of the universe, and the fact that it did all happen randomly, is much more awe inspiring than the thought that some creator whipped it up.

All of the variables that had to fall into line over billions of years to result in my standing in my back yard, jaw agape staring at the night sky in wonderment.

Bard
10-02-2005, 02:50 PM
Though there is some symbolism in the Bible, I personally believe, it means what it says, and says what it means.

I also find it very amusing how MOST who speak the most against it, have NEVER even read it, let alone studied it, leaving them unable to comment in a serious way.

I believe further, that the existance of the God of the Bible, is revealed to ALL men, in a myriad of ways daily, and all men would declare it so, if they had the capability to be honest.

Mans problem with God is NOT, recieving him as a savior, but rather recognising him as their Lord.

Mankind is stubborn, and refuses to bow, preferring to think they are gods themselves.

Mans selfish and primitive nature often sets them against the very premise of Gods word and message, which is one of love and SELFLESSNESS, and obediance.

Man as well refuses to allign themselves up to the laws of god, because they do not agree.

Therefore they spend the rest of their natural born lives attempting to disprove his very existance, though, deep deep in their hearts, each and ALL know he exists, why? Because he reveals himself to all mankind daily, in a myriad of ways.

Buckeye1sid
10-02-2005, 02:59 PM
Firstly and lastly, if you're bound by the law (the bible), you're bound by the whole law (no cafeteria style crap). If the bible is to be taken literally, adulteresses, people who work on Sunday, and others (see Leviticus) are to be stoned to death. Now it's true, Jesus saved one adulteress, but he also said that he came not to change any of the old testament. Folks, the bible is a fairy tale.

InfoNut
10-02-2005, 03:27 PM
Though there is some symbolism in the Bible, I personally believe, it means what it says, and says what it means.

I also find it very amusing how MOST who speak the most against it, have NEVER even read it, let alone studied it, leaving them unable to comment in a serious way.

I believe further, that the existance of the God of the Bible, is revealed to ALL men, in a myriad of ways daily, and all men would declare it so, if they had the capability to be honest.

Mans problem with God is NOT, recieving him as a savior, but rather recognising him as their Lord.

Mankind is stubborn, and refuses to bow, preferring to think they are gods themselves.

Mans selfish and primitive nature often sets them against the very premise of Gods word and message, which is one of love and SELFLESSNESS, and obediance.

Man as well refuses to allign themselves up to the laws of god, because they do not agree.

Therefore they spend the rest of their natural born lives attempting to disprove his very existance, though, deep deep in their hearts, each and ALL know he exists, why? Because he reveals himself to all mankind daily, in a myriad of ways.

Wooooow...
A lot of sweeping statements and assumptions in there.
I agree that many people are anti-christian rather than a-thiest, and have usually had their opinions handed to them by someone else.

But to state that God reveals himself to every man in little ways... upon what do you base this statement and what little ways. Being a believer, you have a different viewpoint. You see little things every day that you attribute to God. I see little things every day that remind me of the universes complexity, yet I do not attribute them to God.

Who is right and who is wrong?

momahedger
10-02-2005, 03:33 PM
Though there is some symbolism in the Bible, I personally believe, it means what it says, and says what it means.

I also find it very amusing how MOST who speak the most against it, have NEVER even read it, let alone studied it, leaving them unable to comment in a serious way.

I believe further, that the existance of the God of the Bible, is revealed to ALL men, in a myriad of ways daily, and all men would declare it so, if they had the capability to be honest.

Mans problem with God is NOT, recieving him as a savior, but rather recognising him as their Lord.

Mankind is stubborn, and refuses to bow, preferring to think they are gods themselves.

Mans selfish and primitive nature often sets them against the very premise of Gods word and message, which is one of love and SELFLESSNESS, and obediance.

Man as well refuses to allign themselves up to the laws of god, because they do not agree.

Therefore they spend the rest of their natural born lives attempting to disprove his very existance, though, deep deep in their hearts, each and ALL know he exists, why? Because he reveals himself to all mankind daily, in a myriad of ways. :thumbsup I also wanted to quote Randy but you can only quote one person at a time. so :thumbsup to you to Randy.

whether it is symbolic or not, the bible is as good of a source today of right and wrong, evil and bad as it was then. Now true, you do not have to adjust to the culture of that time. In most societies, man was the mover and shaker and women had the children. not a bad thing but is different now.

but then a widow was taken care of by the village. and so were orphaned children. now they are on their own.

but now a woman does not have to be subservient to a husband that is cruel and abusive. But there again, the bible did not condone that either. but a woman could not divorce a man but according to the Torah, a man could divorce a woman.

I guess what I am trying to say, I believe in the bible. I believe that most of the things happened or were stories for a moral reason (creation in 7 days? as said by one poster here, what is a day to God?). Taking in the cultural ways, the moral standards have a place in todays world too.

working on Sunday? why does anyone besides the mission essential have to? because man wants it that way. we have gotten away from family, and I admit this pertains to me also. In Germany we got along just fine with things being closed on Sundays. we did family things. we could do it here in America too if we wanted. we would just have to re arrange our lives a little.

momahedger
10-02-2005, 03:41 PM
Recently, it seems as if I hear a watered down version of Christianity becoming prevelant. The "live a good and peaceful life and when you go die, you'll go to heaven" version of Christianity.

Is this not a drastic mistake, and an abrogation of the entire reason Christ was crucified? If mankind is able to get to heaven without him, why did he put himself through that?

I'm not Agnostic. If you have to slap a label on me, you can call me an athiest. If always had difficulty with the bible. Taken literally, the bible is a scary book full of stories about a type of god I'm not sure I'd want to worship if I DID believe. If it's allegorical, how do you know which parts are meant to be interpreted, and which arent?

Just curious.

This didn't caver nearly the ground I wanted to, but I'm hoping this thread will cover some ground. I have to admit... I "Don't Get It", but I do love discussing it.

InfoNutINfoNut at least you want to listen and make your own choice in what you believe and I have no issues with that. The old testament does show a strong God, a demanding God and a warrior God. but the NT softened a little. You have to look at the history and the culture at the time. Israel was growing and needed to be strong. and they found strength in their God. In the NT, God still asks for obediance but the matter of free will comes into the arena.

Free will to choose to do what you want to do. to follow the path of reward or the path of disappointment. the God that I believe in, the one that I read in the Bible is not heartless. He wants to bless, He wants to love, He wants to warn us of what could happen if we donot care about each other, about the earth about all things of nature.

I also believe that He is known by many different names but is the one and only God of all. :)

how do you know what to believe? you follow your gut feeling. your inner voice of what is right and wrong. the Bible talks about the conscience being seared by the devil. If you believe in the light the light will shine from within. it will gently guide you. Just as anyone in any faith knows when they have done something that is not right. I used to tell my kids, that if you were doing something that you would be embarrassed for someone else to know, that it is most likely wrong. maybe not major but wrong.

How do you decide what is true and what is not true in life? your gut feeling. if it is analogical than the meaning is the same even if the story is not. it is the meaning that is the most important of all. in other words, do not sweat the small stuff. :happy

:) I do not feel that my God tries to see if all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed. it is the effort. perhaps not the good intentions but the effort that is achieved. there was only 1 perfect man ever born.

InfoNut
10-02-2005, 03:41 PM
<snip>

whether it is symbolic or not, the bible is as good of a source today of right and wrong, evil and bad as it was then. Now true, you do not have to adjust to the culture of that time. In most societies, man was the mover and shaker and women had the children. not a bad thing but is different now.

but then a widow was taken care of by the village. and so were orphaned children. now they are on their own.

but now a woman does not have to be subservient to a husband that is cruel and abusive. But there again, the bible did not condone that either. but a woman could not divorce a man but according to the Torah, a man could divorce a woman.

I guess what I am trying to say, I believe in the bible. I believe that most of the things happened or were stories for a moral reason (creation in 7 days? as said by one poster here, what is a day to God?). Taking in the cultural ways, the moral standards have a place in todays world too.

working on Sunday? why does anyone besides the mission essential have to? because man wants it that way. we have gotten away from family, and I admit this pertains to me also. In Germany we got along just fine with things being closed on Sundays. we did family things. we could do it here in America too if we wanted. we would just have to re arrange our lives a little.
But isn't this cherry picking? Taking the parts you agree with or like, and discarding what you don't as "No longer culturally relavent"?

Buckeye1sid
10-02-2005, 03:42 PM
Cafeteria style religion.

Bard
10-02-2005, 03:42 PM
Firstly and lastly, if you're bound by the law (the bible), you're bound by the whole law (no cafeteria style crap). If the bible is to be taken literally, adulteresses, people who work on Sunday, and others (see Leviticus) are to be stoned to death. Now it's true, Jesus saved one adulteress, but he also said that he came not to change any of the old testament. Folks, the bible is a fairy tale.

The Old testament was superseded by the New testament Sid.

And time will tell, whether your fairy tale opinion is true or not.

But I can give you a heads up, it is not.

Just because you state the Bible is a fairy tale Sid, with fake mustered authority, does not make it so.

Please tell us about the goddess of the lake you worship Sid, you know, the one with red hair, after you do that, im sure ALL will be be very impressed with your opinions.

Bard
10-02-2005, 03:48 PM
Wooooow...
A lot of sweeping statements and assumptions in there.
I agree that many people are anti-christian rather than a-thiest, and have usually had their opinions handed to them by someone else.

But to state that God reveals himself to every man in little ways... upon what do you base this statement and what little ways. Being a believer, you have a different viewpoint. You see little things every day that you attribute to God. I see little things every day that remind me of the universes complexity, yet I do not attribute them to God.

Who is right and who is wrong?

Sweeping,perhaps in your view, yet all is perceptual Infonut, it is merely my belief, simply that, no more, no less,

It is not important for me to be right, nor to prove you wrong, I base my beliefs on the Bible, which declares the very same, as my above statements.

Time will indeed unviel the truth to all, in time.

randy
10-02-2005, 03:50 PM
The Old testament was superseded by the New testament Sid.

And time will tell, whether your fairy tale opinion is true or not.

But I can give you a heads up, it is not.

Just because you state the Bible is a fairy tale Sid, with fake mustered authority, does not make it so.

Please tell us about the goddess of the lake you worship Sid, you know, the one with red hair, after you do that, im sure ALL will be be very impressed with your opinions.


Bard, KINDNESS

InfoNut
10-02-2005, 03:50 PM
The Old testament was superseded by the New testament Sid.


I'm curious what this concept is based on. The only scripture I've ever heard to support this is "A new commandment I give unto you, love thy neighbor as thyself."

And even if the precepts no longer apply, the God is the same one... right? The God that butchered Job's entire family to prove something to the devil?

Edited to add> Oops, just his sons and daughters.

Buckeye1sid
10-02-2005, 03:54 PM
Anger not the Redhead! The New Testament does not super cede the Old Testament. The New Testament depends upon the Old for it's validity. Jesus took great pains to fulfill all of the old prophet's prophecies.
Now as to the teachings of the New, I'm in agreement with all most all, a notable exception being "turn the other cheek". Further, I'm not at war with any religious system, but I do have an opinion, and no one will ever know who is right.
If any were offended by my statements, I apologise, yet they remain my statements.

Bard
10-02-2005, 03:57 PM
Anger not the Redhead! The New Testament does not super cede the Old Testament. The New Testament depends upon the Old for it's validity. Jesus took great pains to fulfill all of the old prophet's prophecies.
Now as to the teachings of the New, I'm in agreement with all most all, a notable exception being "turn the other cheek". Further, I'm not at war with any religious system, but I do have an opinion, and no one will ever know who is right.
If any were offended by my statements, I apologise, yet they remain my statements.

Sid, please do NOT show your ignorance here, ALL theologians agree, the New Testament supercedes the Old, Jesus declared it as well, the entire New Testament declares it.

Do tell us about the redhead Sid?

Wolfhoundowner
10-02-2005, 03:58 PM
we could do it here in America too if we wanted. we would just have to re arrange our lives a little.

But that would be assuming that EVERYONE in America not only celebrates any religion, but also celebrates a religion whose Sabbath Day is Sunday. I doubt the Jewish among us would be cool with that.

I know many people who still do 'family things' on Sundays. But while I think it's great for them, I know that many others would be very unhappy if all the sidewalks were rolled up on Saturday nights.

I think that people in America should be free to celebrate their chosen Sabbath Day in the manner in which they choose. Freedom of religious expression is one of the things we were founded upon.

momahedger
10-02-2005, 03:59 PM
But isn't this cherry picking? Taking the parts you agree with or like, and discarding what you don't as "No longer culturally relavent"?could be seen as that. But in the NT there were alot of changes already in the making.

I am not a womans libber. not by any means. but changes in the culture. The OT would have left the injured man, Jesus said not to. the OT would have had mary stoned, Jesus said those without sin, cast the first stone. changes.

a mother still is the first person with contact with the children and the one who normally has the most contact. that is why when a mother murders her children it affects us more than when a father does. both do of course but it seems to be more disturbing when a mother does.

what has changed is that Jesus did not say that a woman had to defer to all men. Just to her husband but He admonished the husband to be faithful and caring toward his wife and children. another difference.

Now being good toward your wife would not be beating her. or divorcing her for another woman which had started to become common in the OT. that is why a man could divorce his wife but she could not divorce him.

The NT brought in some more fairness into the system.

the spread of the faith was not supposed to be warlike. in the OT there was no spread of faith, you were either part of the tribes or you were not.

some of the changes are because of advancements. such as pork could not be kept good and went bad quickly. meat did not . and some of the other things had to do with the population growth.

You can call it cherry picking if you want. but I go by my gut. now what I find to be upsetting are the man made laws that the different christian denominations (including my own catholic church) have made that have no bible foundation. that bothers me greatly. :ohwell

Bard
10-02-2005, 04:02 PM
The superceding aspect of which we dispute, is CLEARLY laid out in the book of Romans and Hebrews for ANY who will take the time to read and educate themselves on this issue.

http://www.reformed-theology.org/ice/newslet/be/be.05.80.htm

Buckeye1sid
10-02-2005, 04:06 PM
Bard, the Redhead is wonderful. She, along with the the Gargoyle and the Naked One, are the protectors of the Pond. The Pond has been removed from the Earth and placed in Avalon.
To stay on topic, I shall not engage in theological argument. People get all mean and unChristianlike.

momahedger
10-02-2005, 04:06 PM
But that would be assuming that EVERYONE in America not only celebrates any religion, but also celebrates a religion whose Sabbath Day is Sunday. I doubt the Jewish among us would be cool with that.

I know many people who still do 'family things' on Sundays. But while I think it's great for them, I know that many others would be very unhappy if all the sidewalks were rolled up on Saturday nights.

I think that people in America should be free to celebrate their chosen Sabbath Day in the manner in which they choose. Freedom of religious expression is one of the things we were founded upon.
HI wolfie!!! :) :rahrah :D

okay, in Europe things close down on saturday afternoon. but they could close down on Friday as well. I have found most jewish people to be very easy to get along with as long as they can practice their faith. :happy

I was only citing how the NT could be followed IF a country was completely christian. America is not. we are mixed.

and yes, I agree with you that we should be able to choose our own sabbath, our own way of worshipping. :happy

it was nice in Germany because there was NO competition for the family unless you worked in a mission essential, or food or entertainment area, come to think of it, is the zoo mission essential? :)

but then I do not feel that you have to go to any church to worship. you can worship anywhere. anyplace.

momahedger
10-02-2005, 04:10 PM
The superceding aspect of which we dispute, is CLEARLY laid out in the book of Romans and Hebrews for ANY who will take the time to read and educate themselves on this issue.

http://www.reformed-theology.org/ice/newslet/be/be.05.80.htm
:thumbsup

Wolfhoundowner
10-02-2005, 04:13 PM
*waves back to Moma*

:)

InfoNut
10-02-2005, 04:15 PM
I agree Bard... I'm not trying to be right, or to prove you wrong.

I've been sitting here contemplating your statements about the hubris of man, and the need to prove the non-existance of God.

I think I'd have to make the opposite argument. Is the universe not grand enough for you all on it's own? Does it need the addition of a God or Goddess or Flying Spaghetti Monster to become acceptable.

I think perhaps in mans smallness, he cannot bear to simply be part of the universe. He has to be special. He has to raise himself up to better deal with all the scary stuff in the world.

How better than to have an all powerful being who loves you and thinks you're special. Man needed a really big intimidating friend to help him face the things that go bump in the night. So he created one.

InfoNut
10-02-2005, 04:17 PM
The superceding aspect of which we dispute, is CLEARLY laid out in the book of Romans and Hebrews for ANY who will take the time to read and educate themselves on this issue.

http://www.reformed-theology.org/ice/newslet/be/be.05.80.htm

I knew as soon as I asked, that it's not your job to educate me. My apologies.

Bard
10-02-2005, 04:21 PM
Info,

The post was directed to Sid.

Yet I do educate, by showing the source, wherein the particular answer lies, to the question being disputed yes?

momahedger
10-02-2005, 04:21 PM
*waves back to Moma*

:)
:rahrah :rahrah :rahrah to wolfie!

okay, I am outta here because I am afraid this will degrade down to insult throwing. Jesus outright told the higher ups in the Jewish faith that they were wrong to judge others. so I refuse to judge others in their choice of faiths. unless they refuse to allow to me to worship the way that I choose.

but I do believe as Bard has said, time will tell. and I prefer to err on the side of caution. beleiving in the Bible gives me support and the ability to see the humanity in people. to accept all as the brothers, sisters, moms dads etc of someone and to not want to cause harm to most. though I am not perfect and have never said that I was.

it gives me reason to know that we have to take care of the animals and this earth. they are on loan to us from Him.

It answers some of the questions that I have. and it also affirms to me that we are not the only ones that He has put in His basket either. we are not good of a catch. :laugh

it is up to faith. I see a mother animal with her baby, and marvel how mothers of all life love their little ones. I watch science shows and marvel how man has progressed. I marvel at the abilities of artists and musicians. and I know that all of this comes from Him.

I know that the day of the bank robbery, it was He that made it so that I did not seem to notice the gun. that I had the ability to look only at the robber. and to keep calm and keep everyone calm for those few minutes. He even gave me the balls to try and stall the robber by making him ask for money each time before I gave it to him. I played with him in trying to give time for the police to come since I had hit the button as I got up. 3 in fact!

I was not there alone. He was with me.

Bard
10-02-2005, 04:25 PM
Bard, the Redhead is wonderful. She, along with the the Gargoyle and the Naked One, are the protectors of the Pond. The Pond has been removed from the Earth and placed in Avalon.
To stay on topic, I shall not engage in theological argument. People get all mean and unChristianlike.


No, the reason you will not continue the theological argument Sid, is because you have not got a leg to stand on period, OK, nice try though.

momahedger
10-02-2005, 04:26 PM
I agree Bard... I'm not trying to be right, or to prove you wrong.

(snippet)

I think perhaps in mans smallness, he cannot bear to simply be part of the universe. He has to be special. He has to raise himself up to better deal with all the scary stuff in the world.

How better than to have an all powerful being who loves you and thinks you're special. Man needed a really big intimidating friend to help him face the things that go bump in the night. So he created one.

but see Infonut, I do not feel that we are alone in the universe. He may be called many different names by many different races and types of life. but to me, IMO there is one person, one spirit, one non coporeal being who is in charge of all of this. How we interpret him is personal. :)

Bard
10-02-2005, 04:27 PM
If the New testament, did nOT supercede the old, you would have no need for the two key words so revealing Sid.

New, versus old, get it? :thumbsup

it really should be self explanatory.

Bard
10-02-2005, 04:30 PM
I agree Bard... I'm not trying to be right, or to prove you wrong.

I've been sitting here contemplating your statements about the hubris of man, and the need to prove the non-existance of God.

I think I'd have to make the opposite argument. Is the universe not grand enough for you all on it's own? Does it need the addition of a God or Goddess or Flying Spaghetti Monster to become acceptable.

I think perhaps in mans smallness, he cannot bear to simply be part of the universe. He has to be special. He has to raise himself up to better deal with all the scary stuff in the world.

How better than to have an all powerful being who loves you and thinks you're special. Man needed a really big intimidating friend to help him face the things that go bump in the night. So he created one.

Infonut,

Most of our posters at the Bards would most likely agree with your words, being few here hold to my feelings on the subject, yes, I am in the minority here at the Bards where Christiaity is comcerned, yet, I do not agree with your asssessement, at all.

Man is not nearly powerful enough to create a God.

momahedger
10-02-2005, 04:42 PM
Infonut,

Most of our posters at the Bards would most likely agree with your words, being few here hold to my feelings on the subject, yes, I am in the minority here at the Bards where Christiaity is comcerned, yet, I do not agree with your asssessement, at all.

Man is not nearly powerful enough to create a God.

Bard, God created us, not the other way around and I am with you on this one. who knows why He did and I still think we are not the only eggs in His basket,but He created us. :tiphat

man makes laws that bind, they do not give freedom of choice. Man did not make the universe, he is just now trying to figure it out. Man also seem to think that he is the center and he is not.

InfoNut
10-02-2005, 04:56 PM
I simply do not understand how otherwise rational, intelligent people can suspend their logical minds when it comes to this one subject.

I know, I know... I don't have to understand it.

Religion seems to be the only place where sharing about things that no one else can see won't get you a rubber room quick.

Well, that and metaphysics

Bard
10-02-2005, 05:01 PM
I simply do not understand how otherwise rational, intelligent people can suspend their logical minds when it comes to this one subject.

I know, I know... I don't have to understand it.

Religion seems to be the only place where sharing about things that no one else can see won't get you a rubber room quick.

Well, that and metaphysics


So you assume, or believe, ALL believers fall into the irrational category, due to their belief in the God of the Bible?

InfoNut
10-02-2005, 05:20 PM
So you assume, or believe, ALL believers fall into the irrational category, due to their belief in the God of the Bible?
Not to put too fine a point on it... yes.

There is no more reason to believe the bible is true than to believe in Grimm's fairy tales, or Santa Clause.

Edited to add> Let me re-phrase that a bit. Irrational in that one area, yes. Most believers I know seem otherwise stable. And the few that aren't... it doesn't have anything to do with beliefs.

bagbalm
10-02-2005, 05:27 PM
Literal? When Paul said "These things were not done it a corner," - speaking of the whole story of Christianity he only meant that literally? Then he insulted his audience's intelligence and was pretty dense himself if it wasn't a figure of speech.

Bard
10-02-2005, 05:32 PM
Not to put too fine a point on it... yes.

There is no more reason to believe the bible is true than to believe in Grimm's fairy tales, or Santa Clause.

Funny, I have always felt somewhat the same about those who deny a creator, in view of the wonder the universe holds.

The reproductive system, the many aspects of life that baffle us daily, how on earth can any think these many wonders just evolved.

No, the attempt to deny Gods existance is in vain in my opinion.

All men know, that there exists a hole in their heart, a yearning if you please, that cannot be filled by wealth, women, children or anything else.

I believe Saint Francis of Assisi said it best, when he stated

"Mans heart remains restless till he finds God"

the universe itself, is the very proof of Gods existance, he calls to us in every birds song, the waves that are trained to come in, then retreat again, the order of the universe, no man can tame, nor alter.

Besides the real fact remains this, the reality of God exists within the believer in a very very real way.

It requires no effort.

I know that I know that I know.

Hell, info, my belief in Gods presence, is the real and ONLY truth in my lifetime I have EVER discovered, one I would stake my very life upon, and most likely one day will.

If one searches, they find, if they spend their time disproving him, they most likely will not find, that which they have already denied in their supreme wisdom.

Bard
10-02-2005, 05:35 PM
It remains curious to me as well, that this book called the Bible has been the number one seller of alltime in history!

My oh my, so many irrational folks out there indeed.

thesunnyone
10-02-2005, 05:38 PM
The part that I might take umbrage with is where it says that a woman, upon giving birth must offer up a sin offering. If she has a female baby, she must offer God a blood sacrifice. One might think God is a mysoganist, arrogant bully. Not me of course....

Mr. Lemon Pocket
10-02-2005, 06:01 PM
Here are some things i found concerning whether or not the new testament supercedes the old testament, there were many other articles and scholarly papers written by priests and intellectuals alike that said pretty much the same thing. These are either excerpts from or links to the articles and all basically say that christ said in deed and his own words that he did not come to supercede the old testament, but to affirm its authority, carry it out, and and destroy the pharisees hiding of the word of god beneath a glut of man made laws.

http://members.datafast.net.au/sggram/f250.htm




Matthew 5:17-19 (TLB)


"Don't misunderstand why I have come--it isn't to cancel the laws of Moses and the warnings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them, and to make them all come true. With all the earnestness I have I say: Every law in the Book will continue until its purpose is achieved. And so if anyone breaks the least commandment, and teaches others to, he shall be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But those who teach God's laws and obey them shall be great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Has the Old Testament been superceded by the New Testament?

Another way to take the Old Testament is how our pacifist brothers and sisters do (like the Friends [Quakers] and the Mennonites). They see that the Old Testament conception of God (God as a warrior) as being superceded by the New Testament conception of God found in Jesus (God is love).

While I respect our pacifist Christian brothers and sisters (and we have a lot of Quakers and Mennonites in the Canton area!), I must disagree with their stark separation of the revelation of God in this way. Their conception of the Bible robs it of its full revelation of who God is. It is better to see the entire Bible as teaching the law of love throughout. The New Testament does not supercede the Old, but fulfills the old—reinforcing and interpreting it rightly.

The Old Testament was actually all about love balanced with justice, just as is the New. That is why there were rules set to limit Israel’s destruction and violence as they took over the Promised Land (Deut. 2). That is why the Psalmists grieved over violence, looking to God to cease all wars and to destroy all weaponry (Ps. 46; 120). That is why David, the great King of Israel, was not allowed to build God’s temple because he “shed much blood and have fought many wars” (1 Chron. 22:8-9). Through Isaiah (and many other Old Testament prophets), God lets us know that his ultimate plans are for peace, not for war. A golden age of peace will come from God’s intervention into our world. “He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4) As Brian McLaren recently wrote, “Going to war is never a dream come true; it is always a nightmare come true, God’s best dream for us being temporarily defeated. Training for war is a reminder that the dream of God for planet earth is still frustrated, and taking up swords and spears (or tanks and bombs) means that one or both sides have failed, one or both sides have been defeated, have failed to let God ‘judge between nations’ and ‘settle disputes for many peoples.’”

(http://www.vanguardchurch.com/questions_about_war.htm)

There is a tendency among Christians to place "the Laws of Moses", or what we call the Old Testament, on the back burner so to speak. The common belief is that these books are not relevant to us and our time because we have a New Covenant through Christ our Lord and Savior. It's very true that we do have this New Covenant but Jesus Himself here states that this New Covenant does not supercede nor does it cancel what He here refers to as "the Book". The moral, spiritual and physical laws and ordinances laid down in our Old Testament are just as relevant and necessary for us today as they were for the Israelites when God first carved them on two stone tablets.

The words of warning that came by way of His prophets then are just as valuable to us now as they were to Israel then and perhaps even more so considering the world we live in. The books of the Old Testament, as Jesus as told us, will stand until their purpose has been completed. And, as He has also said, those of us who teach them must not only teach but we must obey them as well. Practice what you preach in this instance is not just a saying but should be our constant and heartily desired goal.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/v7/n4/nct4jgr.htm

InfoNut
10-02-2005, 06:01 PM
If one searches, they find, if they spend their time disproving him, they most likely will not find, that which they have already denied in their supreme wisdom.
Bard,
You've mentioned people disproving or attempting to disprove God.
Can't be done... just like it would be impossible to disprove the existance of an invisible, untouchable, forty foot tall etherial bunny that lives in the Washington monument.

The reproductive system, a bird's song, the waves, the stars... your lack of understanding about how they evolved doesn't mean they didn't.

I think that's how mad created the first gods... trying to explain things they didn't understand, or that scared them.
Fire, animals, lightning, water... these were the first gods, because primitive man didn't understand them. The sun, the moon, venus.
Almost every primitive culture practices some sort of animism (nature worship for those of you playing the home game), and I think this is why.

InfoNut
10-02-2005, 06:06 PM
It remains curious to me as well, that this book called the Bible has been the number one seller of alltime in history!

My oh my, so many irrational folks out there indeed.
argumentum ad populum?
Appeal to Popularity?

You gotta be kidding
I'll pretend I didn't see this one...

IN

Bard
10-02-2005, 06:44 PM
:lolup

Buckeye1sid
10-02-2005, 07:04 PM
To a great many people, faith is what binds them to reality. Faith gives them validation and purpose. Faith, which ultimately will develop good works, is a positive value. No one can prove or disprove a religious system, so where is the value of attempting to belittle anyone's faith?

Mr. Lemon Pocket
10-02-2005, 07:06 PM
The value is in proving which one is right and cornering the market of salvation.

Mr. Lemon Pocket
10-02-2005, 07:07 PM
Here are some things i found concerning whether or not the new testament supercedes the old testament, there were many other articles and scholarly papers written by priests and intellectuals alike that said pretty much the same thing. These are either excerpts from or links to the articles and all basically say that christ said in deed and his own words that he did not come to supercede the old testament, but to affirm its authority, carry it out, and and destroy the pharisees hiding of the word of god beneath a glut of man made laws.

http://members.datafast.net.au/sggram/f250.htm




Matthew 5:17-19 (TLB)


"Don't misunderstand why I have come--it isn't to cancel the laws of Moses and the warnings of the prophets. No, I came to fulfill them, and to make them all come true. With all the earnestness I have I say: Every law in the Book will continue until its purpose is achieved. And so if anyone breaks the least commandment, and teaches others to, he shall be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But those who teach God's laws and obey them shall be great in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Has the Old Testament been superceded by the New Testament?

Another way to take the Old Testament is how our pacifist brothers and sisters do (like the Friends [Quakers] and the Mennonites). They see that the Old Testament conception of God (God as a warrior) as being superceded by the New Testament conception of God found in Jesus (God is love).

While I respect our pacifist Christian brothers and sisters (and we have a lot of Quakers and Mennonites in the Canton area!), I must disagree with their stark separation of the revelation of God in this way. Their conception of the Bible robs it of its full revelation of who God is. It is better to see the entire Bible as teaching the law of love throughout. The New Testament does not supercede the Old, but fulfills the old—reinforcing and interpreting it rightly.

The Old Testament was actually all about love balanced with justice, just as is the New. That is why there were rules set to limit Israel’s destruction and violence as they took over the Promised Land (Deut. 2). That is why the Psalmists grieved over violence, looking to God to cease all wars and to destroy all weaponry (Ps. 46; 120). That is why David, the great King of Israel, was not allowed to build God’s temple because he “shed much blood and have fought many wars” (1 Chron. 22:8-9). Through Isaiah (and many other Old Testament prophets), God lets us know that his ultimate plans are for peace, not for war. A golden age of peace will come from God’s intervention into our world. “He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore.” (Isaiah 2:4) As Brian McLaren recently wrote, “Going to war is never a dream come true; it is always a nightmare come true, God’s best dream for us being temporarily defeated. Training for war is a reminder that the dream of God for planet earth is still frustrated, and taking up swords and spears (or tanks and bombs) means that one or both sides have failed, one or both sides have been defeated, have failed to let God ‘judge between nations’ and ‘settle disputes for many peoples.’”

(http://www.vanguardchurch.com/questions_about_war.htm)

There is a tendency among Christians to place "the Laws of Moses", or what we call the Old Testament, on the back burner so to speak. The common belief is that these books are not relevant to us and our time because we have a New Covenant through Christ our Lord and Savior. It's very true that we do have this New Covenant but Jesus Himself here states that this New Covenant does not supercede nor does it cancel what He here refers to as "the Book". The moral, spiritual and physical laws and ordinances laid down in our Old Testament are just as relevant and necessary for us today as they were for the Israelites when God first carved them on two stone tablets.

The words of warning that came by way of His prophets then are just as valuable to us now as they were to Israel then and perhaps even more so considering the world we live in. The books of the Old Testament, as Jesus as told us, will stand until their purpose has been completed. And, as He has also said, those of us who teach them must not only teach but we must obey them as well. Practice what you preach in this instance is not just a saying but should be our constant and heartily desired goal.

http://www.soundofgrace.com/v7/n4/nct4jgr.htm

Buckeye1sid
10-02-2005, 07:07 PM
Can't be done.

Mr. Lemon Pocket
10-02-2005, 07:09 PM
Some think it can, so it will be a never ending circle of debate, pointless as none will give.

Buckeye1sid
10-02-2005, 07:11 PM
It's an activity for the mean spirited, the spoilers and the cheaters.

Mr. Lemon Pocket
10-02-2005, 07:12 PM
what is? Debating religion? Or claiming one religion is correct over all others?

Bard
10-02-2005, 07:13 PM
To a great many people, faith is what binds them to reality. Faith gives them validation and purpose. Faith, which ultimately will develop good works, is a positive value. No one can prove or disprove a religious system, so where is the value of attempting to belittle anyone's faith?

You mean like saying sorry folks, the Bible is a fairy tale??

You mean like that Sid??

Just curious, sounded a tad belittleing to me??

Buckeye1sid
10-02-2005, 07:14 PM
so where is the value of attempting to belittle anyone's faith?

That is.

Mr. Lemon Pocket
10-02-2005, 07:15 PM
hahaha, i was waiting for that.

Does that fall under spoiling or cheating?

Bard
10-02-2005, 07:15 PM
Sid,

We are not talking about a religious system, but the existance of a true God.

There is a difference.

Buckeye1sid
10-02-2005, 07:17 PM
Right you are, Bard, I do believe in God, but not in a religious system.

I also regret that post!

Buckeye1sid
10-02-2005, 07:19 PM
Lemon, chalk it up to mean spirited.