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lol1uk
09-22-2005, 05:19 PM
One of my sis in laws uses it for pain relief and on bad days, I have been tempted to try it. I haven`t yet but sometimes I really wish we could get it on prescription.
I think......if it really does help relieve pain, and my sis in law sears that it does........then it should be legalized and doctors should be allowed to prescribe it.

One old lady over here had to go to jail because although she didn`t smoke cannabis......she used it when baking cakes.....she and her friends ate the cake whenever they were in pain.


What do you think......should it be made available on precription? should it be legalized for everyone? or should it stay as it is, an illegal substance?

forestfairy
09-22-2005, 05:30 PM
It is a wonderful pain reliever that is non-addicting and less dangerous than other prescription meds. I used to smoke it often, but rarely do now due to asthma. The only reason it is not legalized is due to the stigma attached to it for being a "street drug". It pisses me off, especially when it can benefit so many people who are in pain, are going through chemo, etc and can't eat, and relief of glaucoma pressure. It causes far less damage to individuals and our culture than alcohol and it is ridiculous that it is illegal when far more damaging substances are legal (and taxed to death). It's all about the money. :tantrum

ok, rant is over, back to your regularly scheduled programming...

Wolfhoundowner
09-22-2005, 05:42 PM
I didn't know it was used to control pain -- I always heard it was to control nausea.

Either way, I think it should be available to those who need it by prescription. I've never tried it myself, but I've heard several friends and relatives say how helpful it is in their respective ailments (mostly cancer-related).

RenegadePoster
09-22-2005, 06:28 PM
I think it's ridiculous for it not to be legalized for prescription. I bet the drug companies, who are ever looking out for our best interests (lol), sure would hate to see it happen.

I personally don't like the stuff, and I have seen harm come to people who were heavy on the 'recreational' use of it, but that goes for anything. But I'd much rather see people have the option of using cannabis for pain management rather than to have to rely on narcotics.

My mother, who had cancer, suffered greatly before, during, and after her treatments. She couldn't tolerate the narcotics they gave her for pain (there was nothing for the nausea), so she ended up just suffering.

giiglehoot
09-22-2005, 06:34 PM
Yes.

bagbalm
09-22-2005, 07:56 PM
Yes - have a friend with MS and it relieves the pain in her legs when nothing else does.

Peregrina
09-22-2005, 07:59 PM
honestly can't understand the hoopla about cannabis, since it seems to be less addictive and damaging than many other presription drugs, so yes, I don't see why it shouldn't when it seems to have many good qualities.

Blackeyedpeas
09-22-2005, 08:55 PM
When my MIL was diagnosed with Cancer some years ago, a girl that rented an apartment from her baked her muffins with the stuff in them. My MIL loved them and did not flinch when she was told that they had cannabis in them. She said whatever it was, those muffins sure helped her quite a lot. She was 72 at the time. Cool Lady she was.

So, I do think it should be used legally and by RX.

Peazer

Bard
09-22-2005, 08:57 PM
Yes.

LoveWAgirl
09-22-2005, 10:45 PM
Yes :thumbsup

sear
09-23-2005, 03:38 AM
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded."
Abraham Lincoln (1809-65), U.S. president. Speech, 18 Dec. 1840, to Illinois House of Representatives
"In 1960 in this country [U.S.] there were only 4,000,000 people in the entire nation who had ever used an illicit drug at any time in their life. By 1990 we had 80,000,000 people in this country who had used illicit drugs at any time in their life, and the numbers who became hard core, frequent users were proportional and commensurate." DEA Administrator Thomas Constantine
Therefore, according to this former DEA / U.S. Drug War policy maker: what the U.S. government is doing with its War on Drugs is not working. The above sited corrolation indicates quite the contrary, that it's making the problem worse, not better; just as the Prohibition before it did.
But unlike the last one, we'll just keep waging this War, because we'd rather present the illusion of punishing the victims than risk any appearance of protecting the right of Liberty.

clemiedog
09-23-2005, 05:54 AM
Yes. the current drug laws are the most asinine laws of the last 100 years.

randy
09-23-2005, 07:03 AM
Interesting. The active ingredient in marijuana, THC, is currently available in pill form and Doctors CAN prescribe that medication currently.

All this wonderful speech making about the relief of pain and marijuana's wonderful medicinal value, huh huh.

Why don't you people just admit, YOU LIKE TO GET HIGH!!

Been there, done that and most likely could put all you people to shame in the quanity and quality, OK!

Is it addictive, YES, of course it is. It has principally the same addictive qualities as tobacco does.

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

sear
09-23-2005, 07:23 AM
"Why don't you people just admit, YOU LIKE TO GET HIGH!!" randy
That may be the position / reason of some.
But I'm not merely advocating the decriminalization of marijuana.
I advocate the Creator endowed, Constitutionally enumerated, unalienable right of Liberty.

If we have the right to say only those things approved by the State, then our speech is not free.
The 1st Amendment (ostensibly) protects the right of free speech.
But popular speech needs no protection. Who would protest the speaking of words everyone agrees with, and likes to hear?
It is the right to unpopular speech that is protected. Check Skokie.

But randy:
If we have the right to say only those things approved by the State, then our speech is not free.
And if we have the right to do only those things approved by the State, then we are not free.

We are not free.

So why the hypocrisy randy?

Why immortalize in song "the land of the free, and the home of the brave", when are so alarmed by the exercise of Liberty that we punish severely so many that exercise their right to it?

At the very least, we should stop singing those damn songs.
But if we are to continue to sing them; then perhaps we might consider the policy which results in the U.S. holding the highest per capita of its population behind bars, of any modern western nation.

How can we excuse punishing the exercise of a Creator endowed, Constitutionally enumerated, unalienable right as a crime?!
Liberty is not a crime! It is a right!

randy
09-23-2005, 08:32 AM
Sear I would agree with you but for one thing. Your arguement is very legitimate if it carries through to the end and that is a person is free to make whatever choices they choose as long as they are willing to accept the consequences.

That includes medical (we know that marijuana contains multiple more carcinogens than tobacco, if a smoker of marijuana contracts emphyzema, lung cancer, etc, are we as a society willing to see them in pain and die if they cannot afford the full cost of their medical care. The same goes for tobacco use as well.

There are some activities that we know are not only possible but likely to have adverse personal consequences and in turn adverse financial consequences.

In your most critical opinion, will people who do these kind of activites that put them at probable risk "suffer" quietly and simply die or will they hit hospital ER's demanding FREE treatment when the time comes?

Freedom sounds great, but it is never free.

Bleep
09-23-2005, 08:35 AM
First, as a founding member of NORML-Canada* back in 1975, I can say that I believe Cannabis should be decriminalized NOT "legalized".

(*NORML- the National Organization to Repeal Marijuana Laws in Canada- I quit the Org shortly after it was founded, but thats another story)

We spend waaaaay too much money enforcing these laws. The laws make the product very expensive to the consumer, without the benefit of any taxation to offset the costs of enforcement, and put the entire industry, all the estimated 15-25 Billion dollars of it in your country, into the hands of organized crime. ( Yes, there's another myth busted- the USA produces most of its own marijuana- Mexico and Canada are small players in that crop for USA consumers)

Decriminalization means just stop making laws about it, and stop arresting people and putting them in prison for it. It does not mean that you can cross borders with it. After all, oranges are perfectly "legal" and "decriminalized" but you cannot take them into another country without a special permit. :laugh

Legalization on the other hand, usually involves some sort of government sanction or control. Alcohol is "legal" but heavy taxes are paid on it, and in this country at least, you need a special licence to make, serve or transport it except for small personal quantities of lowball spirits. Owning a still is still illegal unless you are Big Liquor. I'd rather let the government do more important stuff like fight terrorists :rofl or rescue hurricane victims...or try and run the country.

Next, as a physician, PLEASE don't make me the gatekeeper. I can't tell the ones who use it medicinally from the ones who want to get high- they are usually the same people anyway. I have enough real work to do helping people get well without having to try and control the herbs that people want to flavour their life with.

As YOUR physician, I definitely need to know if you are a regular user- its got HUGE health impacts on a variety of things like:

-it increases anxiety disorders and can make them virtually untreatable

-it increases blood pressure and can affect heart disease, kidney problems in a negative way

-it is SMOKE people and SMOKE causes lung cancer and other lung problems just as much as tobacco

-it increases appetite and makes weight control harder

-there is new evidence that it increases blood sugar and may increase your chances of developing diabetes

- it quintuples ( yes thats 5 times) the risk of developing a major mental illness like schizophrenia, if you are genetically susceptible. It quadruples the chance of a relapse in people who are already mentally ill.

- it displaces other medications from receptors in your body and brain and may increase side effects or decrease effectiveness from those medications

- it is actually, contrary to popular MYTH highly adddictive with long term use, especially if that use is started before the age of 15. People who smoke pot prior to 15 are virtually ALL still users at 30. There is a recognized withdrawal syndrome which most chronic users can't recognize because they never stop and the syndrome is drawn out over several months as the marijuana slowly leaves its preferential deposit sites in the brain and body fat. It takes at least 3 months before you will test negative if you have been a daily smoker. The withdrawal syndrome involves mostly intermittent anxiety, shakiness, nausea and loss of appetite and depression and the brain pathways are identical to those for cocaine addiction, which is a shorter withdrawal.


Marijuana is the most studied medication in medicine presently- we know a lot about it. What we know about its therapeutic benefits?

- it is as effective as gravol for nausea, but not more effective than that. The pharmaceutical drug 'Marinol' is a THC derivative used for nausea and is available by prescription for at least 15 years here now. And yes, you do get high from it. it is an unavoidable side effect to which you will develop tolerance over a few weeks. So just like the chronic smoker who seeks stronger and stronger doses and higher quality smoke, the chronic user of marinol will need bigger doses for the HIgh- but interestingly, not for the anti-nausea.

- there is about 1/3 of the population who find it effective for chronic pain control. Interestingly, about 1/3 of the population find sugar pills effective for pain control too. Another 1/3 find it does nothing for their pain except make them high, which for people who like to get high, it may be better to be high and in pain, than straight and in pain. And then there are the third of people for whom the cannibinoid receptors in your brain actually make you more sensitive to pain if you smoke it. OUCH!

- it is a reasonably effective muscle relaxant for chronic spasticity- which is why people with cerebral palsy and spinal cord damage and irritable bowel conditions find it helpful. And incidentally, why doper's eyelids often droop as the muscles in their eyelids relax. And why they slouch and move slowly...

In head to head studies with pharmaceuticals, Pot has never come out better than any for any purpose, and has the major side effects I list above. This is not a moral issue for me, purely a medical issue. There are better, cleaner drugs for almost everything and I can prescribe those happily. Pot's major advantage is that its pretty hard to lethally overdose on it! So why should you need a doctor's script to get it? Thanks, I'm not a dealer, I'm a healer.

sear
09-23-2005, 09:11 AM
"a person is free to make whatever choices they choose as long as they are willing to accept the consequences." randy
AMEN!
I'll drink to that!
"Self-government won't work without self-discipline." Paul Harvey
randy,
Your excellent point may make no more good sense than in the context of tobacco.
The illegal drugs South America exports to the U.S. kill fewer Americans than the legal drugs the U.S. exports to South America.
Why?
Tobacco.
Tobacco has killed & will kill a total of about 400,000 U.S. citizens this year, as it did the year before, etc.
Tobacco kills more Americans than all the illegal recreational drugs combined.
Why should I have to pay for the emphysema, the lung cancer, etc. from their drug abuse of tobacco?!
Why is that deadly drug legal, and a drug much less harmful to the body illegal?

I think the taxes on these commodities should be used to more than offset the cost of their use.
Right now, tobacco sale is legal, and therefore such disbursement of the tax revenue can be directed in that way.
But marijuana sales are mainly illegal. So no such tax payer compensation is possible.

"It's insanity!" Andre Marrou

PS
Dr. H.
Time for me to go offline.
I hope to return. If I do ... I hope to review your post.

randy
09-23-2005, 09:40 AM
"I think the taxes on these commodities should be used to more than offset the cost of their use.
Right now, tobacco sale is legal, and therefore such disbursement of the tax revenue can be directed in that way.
But marijuana sales are mainly illegal. So no such tax payer compensation is possible."

That was not my question Sear, as at this point in time there is little to no chance that marijuana will be decriminalized on a widespread basis much less legalized.


Here it is again;


"In your most critical opinion, will people who do these kind of activites that put them at probable risk "suffer" quietly and simply die or will they hit hospital ER's demanding FREE treatment when the time comes?"

StandinOnAChair
09-23-2005, 09:45 AM
Having been a cancer patient and now a survivor and having been a cancer patient who had chemotherapy for 7 days out of every month for two years - and having been a cancer patient who developed a monstrous allergy to anti-nausea medicines - I can attest to its abilities to stop nausea from chemo drugs.

I would like to see them actually ask patients who have benefitted from its use their opinions rather than he said/she said and people who have no idea -instead of saying - it will be used by non patients - who CARES!!!!!!!!! If it helps 1 out of 5 patients with relief of pain or nausea then it's a success.

Should it be legalized? :thumbsup

randy
09-23-2005, 09:59 AM
Maranol is available by prescription.

Drug addicts will defend their right to use right up to and including their own self demise.

Medical evidence is overwhelming of the negative health impacts of marijuana and the negative social impact as far as enhancing the criminal underworld is undeniable.

lol1uk
09-23-2005, 10:29 AM
Thankyou Dr Horsefeathers for telling us what the downside is.

I`ve changed my mind about being tempted to try it. I have heart disease and weight problems and lung damage already, so I don`t want to risk more damage.

Thanks for informing me. :thumbsup


Randy, I`ve never gotten high in my life. :hmph

skenzer01
09-23-2005, 10:34 AM
some genetic genius should cross marijuana with dandelions or clover or marigolds. who's gonna control you smoking your lawn clippings?

why all the hoopla about pot anyway? it's just another weed. grow it. smoke it. you're only gonna get in trouble if you do it for profit. why would anybody want the government to get involved?

randy
09-23-2005, 10:47 AM
Answer is simple, MONEY

There are economic consequences in many cases to any and all drug usage. Is alcohol a drug, definently. Is it hypocritical to have alcohol legal while criminalizing other drugs, definently.

If every person would assume total financial responsibility for themselves I think you would see most people quite willing to let each person do exactly as he or she pleased, AS LONG AS, it didn't directly impact anyone else. Most people really don't care if their fellow man draws his or her next breath or not and that is the truth, as long as it doesn't cost then any of their money or their time. Is that cold, unfeeling, callous, etc, etc, sure it is but it is a modern day reality.

What you are NOT going to see are people willing these days to SUFFER for their choices and the resulting consequences. Baby boomers were spoiled rotten and their progeny, as a group, are simply hedonistic. Need examples of this, go shopping and see how "well" behaved the children of today are. :)

sear
09-23-2005, 01:40 PM
"Maranol is available by prescription." randy
Possibly so.
But only to very few.
And the few it is available to are often too ill to be able to use it.
The medical advantages of smoked rather than swallowed THC include that nausea patients find swallowing pills difficult; and keeping them down can be as much or more difficult. That problem goes away with smoked marijuana. And swallowing a dose limits the precision of proportioning the dose to the need. When a patient swallows a pill, the patient is stuck with the dose of that pill.
But when smoking marijuana:
a) the drug enters the system faster, because instead of entering through the digestive tract, it enters through the lungs. That's faster. Therefore the pain relief is quicker.
b) when the dose is sufficient, the patient can suspend.
But with pills, the patient is stuck with arbitrary dose increments, often not suited to the patient's needs at that particular time.
c) the patients prefer the smoked kind in some cases. And since that's the fact, WHAT THE HELL DOES THE PREFERENCE OF GOVERNMENT BUREAUCRATS HAVE TO DO WITH IT?!?!
"In your most critical opinion, will people who do these kind of activites that put them at probable risk "suffer" quietly and simply die or will they hit hospital ER's demanding FREE treatment when the time comes?" randy
I think they won't demand free treatment if they have insurance. I had insurance when I was employed by a Fortune 500 employer.

Unfortunately, Congress (both parties) seem determined to render the U.S. an ever more socialist nightmare. So if they get their way, as they so often seem to do, I'm sure we'll be getting stuck with the bill for their treatment one way or another.

But let's get rational for a second.

Removing tax paying citizens from the Income Tax, Sales Tax, School Tax, and Property Tax roles, and throwing those otherwise law abiding citizens into prison cells for decades on end for the dubious offense of committing felony agriculture is hardly the solution to fiscal responsibility!
If you don't want them slopping at the public trough; why the devil would you demand to pay their room, board, food, medical, dental, and education expenses?!
It's absurd!
Kick them OUT of jail and prison. Force them to pay their own damned expenses!

Socialism is the problem.
Militant, belligerent, ruthlessly punitive authoritarianism is not the solution!

The solution to too much socialism is LESS SOCIALISM!!!
Duh !!!

Is anybody home?

StandinOnAChair
09-23-2005, 01:44 PM
[QUOTE=sear]The medical advantages of smoked rather than swallowed THC include that nausea patients find swallowing pills difficult; and keeping them down can be as much or more difficult. That problem goes away with smoked marijuana.


:amen

TwiggyAZ
09-23-2005, 02:04 PM
IF, and I probably won't be, but IF I am ever diagnosed with a fatal ailment, I am going to smoke myself to death, both mary jane and cigs! Cuz I love them both!! And when I get sick from them, I am going to make the state take care of me, just to piss Randy off!!!

I was able to get some of the best stuff for my father when he had cancer. He died. I also procured it for several of his friends and my then BF's mothers friends. They would put it on a salad.

Strangely, I don't think it should be legalized for social use, but for medical use. Cigs are addictive and killing many people. I quit 4 years ago(both of them). They both will give you some kind of ailment if used for many many years. But people who are ill generally are older and it's not going to kill them before their ailment does....so give it to them dammit!!! :clap

StandinOnAChair
09-23-2005, 02:12 PM
(But people who are ill generally are older)

I agree with everything BUT that statement. :old

I was 23 when I had a rare, Stage 4, form of ovarian cancer. Had just turned 23. :thud

I spent many a day in MD Anderson and other cancer hospitals crying my eyes out NOT for me but for those YOUNG babies and children with fatal diseases.

Young people can suffer from a multitude of horrendous illnesses not just cancer.

But I agree with if my number is up I'm going out any way I danged well choose. :rahrah

TwiggyAZ
09-23-2005, 03:01 PM
Hugs to you Stands and congrats on beating the Big C. :thumbsup I had cervical cancer in 1988 and whooped it's butt.

There are those young that you wonder why why why.

StandinOnAChair
09-23-2005, 03:07 PM
You too Twiggy! It's a GREAT group to belong to, we survivors. I have a friend waging a war against cervical right now and she's not doing real well with it. I'm determined we're going to kick it's ass. :rahrah

Bard
09-25-2005, 12:41 AM
Pot is a very harmless drug compared to the majority of pharamceutical drugs doled out daily by irresponsible doctors,

My god, are we still living in the 'reefer madness' age?

This drug can do a lot of good for a lot of folk experiencing pain, it as well does induce ones appetite also (aids victims).

Let's drag ourselves out of the dark ages on this damn issue already.

Jannilu
09-25-2005, 03:29 AM
IMO, it should be legal, and not just as a medical prescription. I haven't smoked for over a decade, and couldn't anyway, due to asthma. However, I would, if I could. I've read the pros & cons, and I think that it should be legal AND taxable, with the same age restriction as alcohol.

pplantlady
09-25-2005, 05:37 PM
YES!

PurpleButterfly
09-25-2005, 05:43 PM
Yes! They're NEVER going to win the war over it. Legalize it and tax it and be done with it! More revenue to waste.

randy
09-25-2005, 06:03 PM
Yes! They're NEVER going to win the war over it. Legalize it and tax it and be done with it! More revenue to waste.


This is VERY TRUE!!

It is an unwinable war.

Something that might merit a discussion I guess would be WHY people get high? There are those that get high STRICTLY occasionally and really do so on a recreational basis. They may get high this weekend and not think about pot for months. OR they may get high next weekend and not again until sometime next year. What separates the true recreational user is that he or she really can take it or leave it. They do not become ADDICTED. They DO NOT have an ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY TRAIT.

There are the others and I believe perhaps the greater number of users who are addicts. They really don't have a choice. Whether that addiction is physical, mental or spiritual really makes no difference at all. An addiction is an addiction.

Maybe we should consider WHAT is so disturbing about and in a person's life that they feel COMPELLED to get high on a continuining and repetetive basis. What is so wrong that they CANNOT live in reality on any kind of regular basis. This really is important. Peoples' lives are ruined when their addiction(s) take over and they lose control.

Bay Street Babe
09-25-2005, 10:41 PM
YES - or at least de-criminalize it.

Bleep
09-26-2005, 08:17 AM
They DO NOT have an ADDICTIVE PERSONALITY TRAIT.
Uh, Randy, last time I checked the neurochemistry research, everyone has cannabinoid receptors in their brain.* So presumably, everyone, given enough longterm use, will become addicted to cannabis. The difference is in how you choose to use it. If you smoke occassionally, it won't happen. If you decide to wake and bake, it eventually will happen that you will HAVE to wake and bake.

It ain't a personality trait, its a neuroanatomical fact.


* The funny thing is, the scientists have yet to discover the endogenous brain chemical that is supposed to fill those receptors.

randy
09-26-2005, 08:27 AM
Uh, Randy, last time I checked the neurochemistry research, everyone has cannabinoid receptors in their brain.* So presumably, everyone, given enough longterm use, will become addicted to cannabis. The difference is in how you choose to use it. If you smoke occassionally, it won't happen. If you decide to wake and bake, it eventually will happen that you will HAVE to wake and bake.

It ain't a personality trait, its a neuroanatomical fact.


* The funny thing is, the scientists have yet to discover the endogenous brain chemical that is supposed to fill those receptors.


I thought that was what I said? Must not have expressed myself very well. I think there are some people who can become addictied to anything whether that be food, drugs, sex, etc. It if feels good to them they can never get enough. If you are for example an alcoholic then you also have a very high probability of become addicted to pot if you begin using that drug as well. There are some people, presumably, who can occasionally indulge and walk away. They do not appear to have addictive personalities, IMO.

Bleep
09-26-2005, 08:53 AM
It sounded as though you are blaming people's personalities for becoming addicted, Rany, so forgive me if I misundertood. Its not about perverse persoanlity disordered adults making choices, its about normal kids being caught up in the cannabis cult before they can even reason.

I live in Bud Central. Here, 75% of the school kids age 13-17, have used marijuana in the last 12 months. 20% are regular users, as defined by monthly use or more. A significant proportion are daily users. Thats a local survey done by the school district.

I don't think, at 13-17, that it's really an informed choice. Its a go-along-with-the-crowd sort of choice. And when you start that young, addiction is almost inevitable. Its not dependant on any factor of personality. All adolescents are in that stage of individuation that makes them choose different from their elders. And pot is so easily available- here you can go to any high school at lunch time and smell it. Teachers find it normal that 2-3 students in any class will be high.

At least decriminalizing it would allow people to establish a different culture of use, such as exists for alcohol. Right now, here, possession of any amount, or use of any amount, automatically makes you a criminal. Decent, straight people are afraid to talk about what might be appropriate use because it puts us in with the criminal camp. I am risking my reputation and my job, for example, by posting such stuff here. While its illegal, no rational discussion can take place. Its a public health epidemic, and those of us in health know that decriminalization will result in significant harm reduction, but to advocate such makes us look like a bunch of stoners. :thud

The lobby from the USA's BIG LIQUOR and BIG TOBACCO doesn't help. This is the chief objection to decriminalization- these industries fear they will lose profits if cannabis is not against the law. Canada would've decriminalized in the 1970's when the LeDain commission recommended it, except for the pressure from our neighbour to the south.

TwiggyAZ
09-26-2005, 09:03 AM
Horsefeathers said It ain't a personality trait, its a neuroanatomical fact.

I'd like to respectfully disagree. If I have the neuroanatomical thingy for this and I choose self control, that is my personality, consciousness, deciding not to smoke, how much, etc., not my chemical neuroanatomical thingys!

I think addictive "personalities" have choices. I think the majority, maybe all choose to check out of reality because they can't deal with it for one reason or another. No on can convience me that people that are addicted to drugs, including alcohol, did not know they could become addicted to it. Krikee, I knew that when I was 10 years old. I think if you are on the planet for at least 10 years, your going to hear it somewhere!

I, personally, am not a proponent of the "addiction is a disease" thing. Well, in one sense I am and that is that the person did the drugs for a reason and that reason is probably the source, not the drug itself.

Life is not easy. ESPECIALLY in the US, where we are under extraordinary pressure to perform, conform, and keep up with the Jones. Put on top of that being a child of parents that are addicted to some drugs, it's almost impossible to raise yourself and become a good citizen that uses drugs recreationally. But I think it can be done, if people in the community recognize it and help children more.

I don't think we help children enough. We still have that attitude of it is none of our business what goes on behind closed doors, even if someone is abusing a child.

Teachers, the first to get to know a child out of the parents home is our first line defense, but their hands are tied. Yes, they are suppose to report abuse, etc....but there is a lot more that could help the child that the teacher is not allowed to do because it is considered interference in the family and heaven forbid we do that, even if the family structure sucks.

OK, end of chapter One!!

Bleep
09-26-2005, 10:42 AM
Twiggy, when 75% of our kids are using the drug before they become adults, what "choice" is there at all? Most of them are addicted before they can make a "choice" as adults.

We all have the equipment to become addicted. The growing evidence is that exposure, not personality type, is the overwhleming best predictor of addiction.

Its not like when I was growing up, 30 years ago, when the drug was hard to come by and I never even saw any until I became a legal adult. Such unexposed adults are far more likely to be able to "choose" not to use drugs and alcohol, or promiscuous sex, or {substitute any other addictive behavior you choose}. Exposed kids are simply unable to make the choice.

My sense is this- prohibition has not worked. Decriminalization will at least bring it out in the open so decent folks are not afraid to talk about it and we have more of a chance of putting back into public health where it belongs. The legal system admits they have no control on the issue and the money wasted in those efforts would do untold good in rehab and treatment programs

TwiggyAZ
09-26-2005, 12:46 PM
Horsefeathers said: Exposed kids are simply unable to make the choice.

Being exposed myself(father was an alki) and not taking the drug myself, I would naturally disagree with you. I knew it's implications, and I think other children that have one or two addicted parents know better than anyone the implications of drugs. I also think we don't give children near the respect for they intelligence! They sure do pick up on adult things very quickly. And we see them use this to their advantage at times, so I never want to dismiss their ability to know what drugs will do to them, AND their ability to not do them.

I'm sure it is confusing for a child to be in the middle of a couple of adults that act like children. The child may think they need to escape also, but they also see the outside world, so they KNOW things aren't right at home.

My father was your typical Army alki, but even at a very young age I knew that was not a good thing and that not all father's did that and that I didn't have to.

I agree it is a very difficult situation for children to be in and a difficult choice, but still attainable, especially with the help of others.

Adults....no excuses, they know what they are doing.

PurpleButterfly
09-26-2005, 12:50 PM
Something that might merit a discussion I guess would be WHY people get high?

At one point in my life, it was the ONLY thing that helped with my insomnia. Popping a half a dozen Sominex sure didn't do the trick, and was MUCH more harmful. That's all the stuff does to me is put me to sleep.

Mr. Lemon Pocket
09-26-2005, 12:57 PM
Initially, it is a choice to try a drug or not. But for whatever reasons, peer pressures, watching parents do them, curiosity, or general weakness, once you're hooked, there is no choice. Anyone who's ever been addicted to anything could tell you that. From cigarettes to some pot all the way to H and crack, there is no choice. You get your fix or you basically do not feel right, and in some cases you become sick.

Pot is one of the least harmful drugs out there, you generally do not hear about anyone murdering for dope money, or flipping out and killing an elderly woman down the road from them. Physically, it holds the same risks as smoking cigarettes i think. And considering that booze, a drug that leads to many many more deaths, much more violence, and a a hell of a lot more incidence of life ruination. I.E. a homeless alcoholic because he or she just cannot stop drinking long enough to get or hold a job. It is ridiculous that pot is still illegal for any reason.

Buckeye1sid
09-26-2005, 01:05 PM
All drugs should be legalized and taxed. The same logic used in Roe v Wade should be applied to drugs. Drugs used to be legal.

sear
09-26-2005, 02:29 PM
"Drugs used to be legal." Buck
Correct.
And when they were, there were all sorts of troubles with them.
So they began to restrict & ban them.
As a result, the problems grew worse; in addition to new problems being created.

Thus, we have learned, drugs are bad. Drug War is worse.

But the drug Warriors, and the Drug War policy makers don't care.
They're more interested in their own power than they are about the good governance of the People, or justice.

Mr. Lemon Pocket
09-26-2005, 04:19 PM
Well, sure. A drug warrior without a drug war wont have much of a way to make a living.

forestfairy
09-26-2005, 06:26 PM
I do not agree that pot is addictive physically. Psychologically? Yes. I was a heavy smoker (pot) for about 10 years, almost everyday without fail. Usually 3-4 times a day. I have an extremely addictive personality (cigarettes, coffee, etc.). I pretty much quit cold turkey (except occasional use now) and you know what happened? Nothing. I had trouble getting to sleep for about 3 nights and that's it. Yeah, of course I still felt like smoking every once in awhile, but no actual cravings. Cigarettes, now that's what an addiction is.

browneyedK
09-26-2005, 06:33 PM
I agree with you forestfairy....

I have been smoking for almost 34 years...Quit too many times to mention and always come right back to it. Started when I was 14.

My mom died as a result of being a smoker..my dad went through bypass surgery..we almost lost him..but didn't only to be diagnosed 2 months later with colon cancer. Do you think I quit smoking...after all that...NOOOOOOO

I tried but didn't work. Back and forth..back and forth!

I tell myself that If I die of lung cancer..then I'll just join my mom who is up there watching.....I miss her!

Sorry...got carried away!

I don't even know what this thread is about... :thud

Mr. Lemon Pocket
09-26-2005, 06:37 PM
Thats the crux concerning pot, most feel it isnt very addictive, physically. It's more a routine driven addiction. Which for some, is easy to break, for others, not so easy. I am usually wary in saying it isn't addictive based on my own experiences and others i've seen. I will say that it is a bit easier to stop than most things.

Cigarettes though, i remember reading they are more addictive than heroin. Thats a bold statement. Not as harmful in the immediate as heroin, but in the long run, due to its highly addictive properties being much much worse than heroin. Yet cigarettes are legal. Is it that it's okay to kill ourself slowly with the smokes, yet not okay to kill ourself much quicker with heroin?

The criteria they use to ban substances seems either non-existant or at the least ridiculous.

thesunnyone
09-26-2005, 06:46 PM
My son is a doctor an has no problem with prescribing cannabis for pain or nausea. Unfortunately he won't perscribe for family members.

And whats so bad about feeling good? If a side effect of the drug is that you have a feeling of well being, who gets hurt?

The current laws are ridiculous.

browneyedK
09-26-2005, 06:51 PM
I don't know about pot being addictive..but I sure as hell know smokes are...

And if ya read the ingredients in cigarettes...???? It will scare the hell out of ya.

Acetanisole
Acetic Acid
Acetoin
Acetophenone
6-Acetoxydihydrotheaspirane
2-Acetyl-3- Ethylpyrazine
2-Acetyl-5-Methylfuran
Acetylpyrazine
2-Acetylpyridine
3-Acetylpyridine
2-Acetylthiazole
Aconitic Acid
dl-Alanine
Alfalfa Extract
Allspice Extract,Oleoresin, and Oil
Allyl Hexanoate
Allyl Ionone
Almond Bitter Oil
Ambergris Tincture
Ammonia
Ammonium Bicarbonate
Ammonium Hydroxide
Ammonium Phosphate Dibasic
Ammonium Sulfide
Amyl Alcohol
Amyl Butyrate
Amyl Formate
Amyl Octanoate
alpha-Amylcinnamaldehyde
Amyris Oil
trans-Anethole
Angelica Root Extract, Oil and Seed Oil
Anise
Anise Star, Extract and Oils
Anisyl Acetate
Anisyl Alcohol
Anisyl Formate
Anisyl Phenylacetate
Apple Juice Concentrate, Extract, and Skins
Apricot Extract and Juice Concentrate
1-Arginine
Asafetida Fluid Extract And Oil
Ascorbic Acid
1-Asparagine Monohydrate
1-Aspartic Acid
Balsam Peru and Oil
Basil Oil
Bay Leaf, Oil and Sweet Oil
Beeswax White
Beet Juice Concentrate
Benzaldehyde
Benzaldehyde Glyceryl Acetal
Benzoic Acid, Benzoin
Benzoin Resin
Benzophenone
Benzyl Alcohol
Benzyl Benzoate
Benzyl Butyrate
Benzyl Cinnamate
Benzyl Propionate
Benzyl Salicylate
Bergamot Oil
Bisabolene
Black Currant Buds Absolute
Borneol
Bornyl Acetate
Buchu Leaf Oil
1,3-Butanediol
2,3-Butanedione
1-Butanol
2-Butanone
4(2-Butenylidene)-3,5,5-Trimethyl-2-Cyclohexen-1-One
Butter, Butter Esters, and Butter Oil
Butyl Acetate
Butyl Butyrate
Butyl Butyryl Lactate
Butyl Isovalerate
Butyl Phenylacetate
Butyl Undecylenate
3-Butylidenephthalide
Butyric Acid]
Cadinene
Caffeine
Calcium Carbonate
Camphene
Cananga Oil
Capsicum Oleoresin
Caramel Color
Caraway Oil
Carbon Dioxide
Cardamom Oleoresin, Extract, Seed Oil, and Powder
Carob Bean and Extract
beta-Carotene
Carrot Oil
Carvacrol
4-Carvomenthenol
1-Carvone
beta-Caryophyllene
beta-Caryophyllene Oxide
Cascarilla Oil and Bark Extract
Cassia Bark Oil
Cassie Absolute and Oil
Castoreum Extract, Tincture and Absolute
Cedar Leaf Oil
Cedarwood Oil Terpenes and Virginiana
Cedrol
Celery Seed Extract, Solid, Oil, And Oleoresin
Cellulose Fiber
Chamomile Flower Oil And Extract
Chicory Extract
Chocolate
Cinnamaldehyde
Cinnamic Acid
Cinnamon Leaf Oil, Bark Oil, and Extract
Cinnamyl Acetate
Cinnamyl Alcohol
Cinnamyl Cinnamate
Cinnamyl Isovalerate
Cinnamyl Propionate
Citral
Citric Acid
Citronella Oil
dl-Citronellol
Citronellyl Butyrate
itronellyl Isobutyrate
Civet Absolute
Clary Oil
Clover Tops, Red Solid Extract
Cocoa
Cocoa Shells, Extract, Distillate And Powder
Coconut Oil
Coffee
Cognac White and Green Oil
Copaiba Oil
Coriander Extract and Oil
Corn Oil
Corn Silk
Costus Root Oil
Cubeb Oil
Cuminaldehyde
para-Cymene
1-Cysteine

Some ingredients sound good..but

Acetone..better known as paint stripper

Formaldehyde..embalming fluid

Lead...gives your brain damage

Benzene...the same stuff they use to make pesticides..and gasoline

Nicotene..what more can we say..very addictive

DDT...insecticide

Cadmium...Battery acid....

Arsenic..poison..poison..poison

:shrug Why do we do it????

Smoke break....

giiglehoot
09-26-2005, 06:54 PM
And whats so bad about feeling good?

The current laws are ridiculous.

No kidding. I hear ALL those commercials about mood modification drugs you are EXPECTED to take if you feel, anxious, uncomfortable, out of sorts, grumpy, too happy, whatever TF. Normal feelings aren't [I]normal/I] anymore.

Guaranteed, if you take a hit, you wouldn't worry about those things near as much.

Now, somebody had better FEED ME! http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v240/prospectplace/forum%20emoticons/food%20drink/pp_fooddrink_007.gif

forestfairy
09-26-2005, 07:05 PM
good point giiglehoot, how about the one for pms, which is only an anti-depressent in disguise (as is Zyban for quitting smoking). "Do you feel grouchy, have cramps, and get annoyed when you're on your period? Then take this psychiatric medication..." Who DOESN'T feel like that when they are on their period?

I have nothing against meds (lord knows I work with mentally ill people who really need em'- mostly), but if you have a few bad days the doc tries to throw some drugs down your throat. I mentioned to the doctor that I had 2 anxiety attacks, and she tried to put me on drugs. 2!!!!! I laughed in her face. This whole world is drugged up on pharmacuticals.

thesunnyone
09-26-2005, 07:07 PM
site web Oops! Sunflowers Mistaken For Marijuana Plants From 7online.com

(Bel Aire, Kan. -WABC, Sept. 21, 2005) - Police thought they'd found marijuana plants growing in a former mayor's back yard so they took pictures, got a search warrant and went back to take a look.

They found sunflowers.
Harold and Carolyn Smith had grown the plants from seeds given to them by their son, a wildlife biologist. What made the error even more baffling, the Smiths' attorney said, is that Kansas is known as the Sunflower State.

"That plant on our state flag is not a marijuana plant, but a sunflower," said attorney Dan Monnat.

At least 10 officers went through the Smiths' house, checking drawers and closets and videotaping everything during the search, Monnat said.

The couple is wondering how such a mistake could happen.

"These are very community-oriented people who have been active in their community affairs for years," Monnat said. :thankyou

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